Another tuner upgrade question - Cordoba

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by john bange

you mentioned crossover guitar...usually with a 1 7/8 nut width.

If a tuner set with a bearing at the end of the roller is your choice, make sure your head stock is wide enough at the E strings to allow the tuner plates to both screw down.
My Martin 000c crossover has a peg head that is too narrow at the E strings and one side will not seat as the bearings hit one another. This is not a problem with a plastic roller because a tiny bit can be trimmed off.

just something that happened to me...don't know about the Cordoba

FWIW, my Pavan is a 50mm nut (1.97").

[nightflight]

QUOTE:
The Rubner Roll rollers (optional, use the "Select roller style for pricing") pull down box have a bearing on the end of the roller that fits in the center section of the headstock. These rollers eliminate the roller binding on the wood of the headstock, the tuners are literally as smooth as Gotoh 510 sealed tuners (for steel strings).
This shows them:
https://www.rubnertuners.com/new-page-3/

I bought a set of the Rubner Rollers... and wow, they are smooth and perfect for a lovely little classical parlor guitar I bought.

[Red_Label]

I put Grand Schaller tuners on all my full size Cordobas and they're awesome. I had to order them direct from Schaller in Germany though. I think they ran about $150 a set, because three sets ran me $450. I had been seriously close to springing for Sloans, but decided that I liked the Schallers better.

[dkstott]

I looked at those grand schaller's for quite some time.

I almost pulled the trigger on buying them for my Cordoba, but the big logo on them turned me off.

Bought my Rubner's for about $120 for the set

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by dkstott

I looked at those grand schaller's for quite some time.

I almost pulled the trigger on buying them for my Cordoba, but the big logo on them turned me off.

Bought my Rubner's for about $120 for the set

I like that big lazy "S" logo. I looked at the Runbners, but the look of the Schallers seemed more elegant and refined to my eye.

[Pat Foster]

Originally Posted by john bange

you mentioned crossover guitar...usually with a 1 7/8 nut width.

If a tuner set with a bearing at the end of the roller is your choice, make sure your head stock is wide enough at the E strings to allow the tuner plates to both screw down.
My Martin 000c crossover has a peg head that is too narrow at the E strings and one side will not seat as the bearings hit one another. This is not a problem with a plastic roller because a tiny bit can be trimmed off.

just something that happened to me...don't know about the Cordoba

Good point. I've run into this problem, since the Rubner roller is 32mm, while most others are 30mm. That's about .080" difference.

[coder]

Let me try to put into perspective (IMO)
the 2 things you get for the extra money, and why these matter:

1) Presision machined worm gears. This minimizes friction and slop. Preferably the brass cog should be press-fitted to the shaft. The precision design and precise machining also minimizes wear, which will otherwise cause the tuner to develop slop/backlash over time.

2) Roller bearings on both end of the string roller. (for both classical or slot head guitars)

For ease of tuning, both of these features are useful to minimize the difference beween static and dynamic friction. This allows easy turning of the tuner up or down, to quickly hit the exact pitch you want, (vs. the more common iterative overshooting, which pretty much requires to lower the pitch first, and bringing it up from below) .

The ease of tuning may not matter to a hobbyist quite as much as to a performing artist, where we usually have plenty of time to fiddle with the
tunning to get it right, or call it "good enough for practice".

In a concert situation, the time it takes to tune, does matter a great deal.

There is also the question: can you hear the difference? A high quality tuner makes it possible to quickly get the pitch to within a cent of the correct pitch. Many people simply cannot "hear " well enough to care. If you use a digital tuner, and plus/minus 10 cents is good enough for you, maybe you do not
care much about this topic, and you may be puzzled what all the fuss is about.

The precision machining is the key difference between the expensive and inexpensive tuners. You cannot expect this level of care on mass produced inexpensive sets, although you may be able to get the roller bearings, which are worth getting in any case.
The Schaller GrandTunes, for example are much better machined than the "regular" Schallers, they are on par with the Waverly/Sloan tuners.

Then there are the insanely well machined Graf, Alessi (in a class of their own).

[Always Learning]

Originally Posted by lkjjr

Have done some thread searches for this, but am finding myself getting a bit overwhelmed and could use some advice..

I’m not a classical guitarists per se, but more of a “crossover” type. Considering if it is worthwhile to upgrade tuning machines on my Cordoba Orchestra CE. I’m not having any specific issues with the stock tuners, but this is becoming my “go to” guitar so I am willing to invest a little bit for tuning stability. Since this is a modestly priced guitar I’m not looking for “premium” tuners that might cost a relatively high percentage of what I paid for the guitar- $500. I’m thinking $75.00 or hopefully less might get the job done. I have a good bit of experience with steel string tuners (Grover, Schaller, Gotoh, etc.), but not nylon string.

Anyone have experience with this upgrade on this model or similar Fusion series Cordobas?

What are some good online sources beyond StewMac and AllParts?


Thanks…

Hey Lk...

If you are planning on swapping out your tuners you need to know two main points...

1) What is the gear ratio of the ones you are going to buy?
2) What is the "spacing" from center of one roller to the other roller?

On my high end guitar I swapped out the stock tuners which were 14/1s with a set of Irving Sloan 16/1 ratio and the spacing between rollers was 35mm. Back in 96 my Sloans cost close to $350. But well worth it since I knew I was gonna keep my guitar.

If I am not mistaken Cordoba stock tuners are 14/1... believe it or not a slightly higher ratio helps when tuning your guitar.

You migh look for a used set in your price range. But to be honest I doubt that if anyone has a higher-end set of tuners on their axe, that they would swap it out, unless they wanted fancier keys.

[singlechange]

You might consider Der Jung tuning machines from a Taiwan based company. The tuning machines start at $35 per set and go up to about $70. There are guitar builders who swear by Der Jung machines. Since you live in northern Georgia you might call around some music shops. Ebay has them and shipping from Taiwan is a reasonable $15. Let us know what you get. Here is the link to Der Jung
https://classicalguitartuners.com/der-jung-tuners/

[OPJ77]

Originally Posted by singlechange

You might consider Der Jung tuning machines from a Taiwan based company. The tuning machines start at $35 per set and go up to about $70. There are guitar builders who swear by Der Jung machines. Since you live in northern Georgia you might call around some music shops. Ebay has them and shipping from Taiwan is a reasonable $15. Let us know what you get. Here is the link to Der Jung
https://classicalguitartuners.com/der-jung-tuners/

Wow, these are some pretty tuners. I wonder if their durability is on par with other mid grade tuners.

[Always Learning]

"Originally Posted by lkjjr View Post
Have done some thread searches for this, but am finding myself getting a bit overwhelmed and could use some advice..

I’m not a classical guitarists per se, but more of a “crossover” type. Considering if it is worthwhile to upgrade tuning machines on my Cordoba Orchestra CE. I’m not having any specific issues with the stock tuners, but this is becoming my “go to” guitar so I am willing to invest a little bit for tuning stability. Since this is a modestly priced guitar I’m not looking for “premium” tuners that might cost a relatively high percentage of what I paid for the guitar- $500. I’m thinking $75.00 or hopefully less might get the job done. I have a good bit of experience with steel string tuners (Grover, Schaller, Gotoh, etc.), but not nylon string."

LK...

To me and this is just me... the only reason you would want to change your tuning machines is to make it easier to tune your guitar and achieve and maintain the best intonation. That is why you would swap out a set of 14/1 ratio tuner to more precise 16/1 or 18/1 tuners....

The whole purpose for upgrading your tuners is for the ease of and accuracy TUNING your guitar and keeping it tuned.

[Baldrick]

I have replaced 4 sets of classical guitar tuners with Der Jungs that I got from Zebulon Turrentine, who operates the classical guitar tuners website. I'm very satisfied with them. I like them a lot better than the $200 Schallers on an instrument I have right now, and one day I may just pull off the Schallers and put on a set of Der Jungs. At $75 a set they're a really good value.

Zeb also makes some really good classical guitars.

[offkey]

Originally Posted by Baldrick

I have replaced 4 sets of classical guitar tuners with Der Jungs that I got from Zebulon Turrentine, who operates the classical guitar tuners website. I'm very satisfied with them. I like them a lot better than the $200 Schallers on an instrument I have right now, and one day I may just pull off the Schallers and put on a set of Der Jungs. At $75 a set they're a really good value.

Zeb also makes some really good classical guitars.

I have had the same experience exactly.

[coder]

I expect the Schallers (the roller bearing equipped Grand Tunes) to be better than the Der Jungs. I have 3 Der Jung-s and one SGT on order, all with roller bearings. I will do some A-B testing, with special focus on tuning ease.
Perhaps some photos using 300x magnification?

-Can I drop down to a note from above?
-Overshooting the target pitch, how often?
-How much difference is there between static and dynamic friction of the tuner?
-How smooth do the tuners turn @ full string tension?
Will post the results in a couple of weeks.

[coder]

Was that vanilla Schallers, or Schaller Grand Tune's with roller bearings?