No need to worry about CITES any more?

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by GroovyException

It's not just resale, most of those high end instruments simply aren't available to begin with. And it's not just the 'boutique' stuff. Makers like Waterloo, Eastman, Furch, Breedlove etc have no presence in small countries like my own. I have to check the specs of any guitar I'm interested in importing in detail - it may have an ebony bridge and fingerboard but is that a rosewood overlay on the headstock? Does the seller's description match the manufacturers? It's all rather frustrating.

I didn’t mean to imply resale was the only consideration. Even in the U.S. we have these “other” considerations. Not to the extent you may have though. For example, there’s good interest in the US for Canadian luthiers. A few months ago I purchased an unusual uke direct from the Canadian luthier, and I put a lot of extra effort into ensuring NONE of the wood used was going to hold it up in US customs....even with NAFTA.

[Conomor]

Originally Posted by gmel555

For example, there’s good interest in the US for Canadian luthiers. A few months ago I purchased an unusual uke direct from the Canadian luthier, and I put a lot of extra effort into ensuring NONE of the wood used was going to hold it up in US customs....even with NAFTA.

Fair point, I hadn't considered that. To be honest, I'd think I'd be happier with an outright ban on the use of rosewood in new guitars rather than a continuation of the existing regulations. However, I suspect there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth at that.

[Tico]

Originally Posted by UncleJesse

But If I, living in the US, were to buy a new guitar with BRW, say from Pre*War, and never planned on leaving the US why would CITES matter? I'm curious because I don't know much about this. Would this only be a concern for people moving from country to country?

States in the US are all over the map, so to speak. LOL
What's to stop states X, Y and Z from enacting more-restrictive legislation in the future?

[vintage40s]

Originally Posted by Tico

... What's to stop states X, Y and Z from enacting more-restrictive legislation in the future?

CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) is an international agreement between governments. Its aim is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten their survival.
https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/parties/chronolo.php

A state can make its own laws, but cannot be a party to CITES, much less change anything about it.

[tadol]

CITES is really only a worry if you are in the business of selling guitars - it can be a concern if you want to buy guitars and they need to cross international borders, but the paperwork and documentation is the responsibility of the seller. Most builders who use CITES listed materials have gotten this figured out. And it is now pretty clear that carrying a personal instrument into a country is not likely to trigger any problems (although you may still have to look out for the shell materials).

[Yrksman]

Originally Posted by tadol

CITES is really only a worry if you are in the business of selling guitars - it can be a concern if you want to buy guitars and they need to cross international borders, but the paperwork and documentation is the responsibility of the seller. Most builders who use CITES listed materials have gotten this figured out. And it is now pretty clear that carrying a personal instrument into a country is not likely to trigger any problems (although you may still have to look out for the shell materials).

A PERSONAL instrument containing Brazilian Rosewood can be impounded at an international border. Other rosewoods are ok.

[tadol]

https://americanorchestras.org/advoc...avel-tips.html


May be different for musicians in other countries -

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Tico

States in the US are all over the map, so to speak. LOL
What's to stop states X, Y and Z from enacting more-restrictive legislation in the future?

Really good question....I actually think they could or the Feds could stop interstate commerce on certain things. Real-life example: Bob Colossi can only ship ivory saddles/nuts within the state of Georgia. He cannot ship ivory to another state. I don’t know if that’s GA state law or Fed regulation but it prohibits that inter-state commerce.

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by gmel555

Really good question....I actually think they could or the Feds could stop interstate commerce on certain things. Real-life example: Bob Colossi can only ship ivory saddles/nuts within the state of Georgia. He cannot ship ivory to another state. I don’t know if that’s GA state law or Fed regulation but it prohibits that inter-state commerce.

That one is federal. Official US Gov't info here:

https://www.fws.gov/international/tr...d-answers.html

[Tico]

Originally Posted by vintage40s

CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) is an international agreement between governments. Its aim is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten their survival.
https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/parties/chronolo.php

A state can make its own laws, but cannot be a party to CITES, much less change anything about it.

The question was raised about feeling safe buying BR and Mad as long as one never leaves the USA.

If states can make laws more restrictive than the federal-level CITES then even those who never leave the USA may some day regret buying a guitar with outlawed wood.

When wood is outlawed, only outlaws will have wood.

[wonderfulremark]

ever since the new CITES regulation, including EIR, it's almost impossible to buy guitars built with EIR from the USA. Even it's just coming up to Canada.

[1 more]

Three months ago I bought a 2009 built guitar in California with EIR back and sides with ebony fingerboard and bridge.
I carried back to Australia from the U.S. via Hawaii. It was definitely viewed by U.S. customs as it had an inspection card inside the case. We got through easy enough.
BRW ..... well that might be another issue..

[IndyHD28]

Originally Posted by GroovyException

To be honest, I'd think I'd be happier with an outright ban on the use of rosewood in new guitars rather than a continuation of the existing regulations. However, I suspect there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth at that.

Glad you live in NZ. There is absolutely no reason for such a radical stance. Most of the RW now being used is commercially farmed EIRW. I have complete confidence in the American manufacturers I patronize to produce and sell guitars that are legal and ethically sourced. I have no intention of selling or transporting out of the US so CITES is a very minor irritant here.

And yes, should the CITES bureaucrats implement additional unnecessary radical restrictions, the “wailing and gnashing of teeth” would start here. You must remember, the entire wood consumption for all musical instruments is but the proverbial flea on the tail of the dog of worldwide exotic wood consumption. Being caught up in the web of the true villains—guess who? The Chinese—as they poach mountains of exotic lumber for their absurd furniture industry is deplorable.

[vintage40s]

Originally Posted by Tico

... If states can make laws more restrictive than the federal-level CITES then even those who never leave the USA may some day regret buying a guitar with outlawed wood...

CITES is an international agreement enforced by Customs, not a federal law. A don't know why a state would want to make up its own law banning more than CITES does.

[vintage40s]

Originally Posted by wonderfulremark

ever since the new CITES regulation, including EIR, it's almost impossible to buy guitars built with EIR from the USA...

This article about relief for musicians refers to the 2016 regulation of EIR, when permits were no longer required for travel, but were added for its sale:
https://americanorchestras.org/advoc...-policies.html
--
... While musical instruments that contain Brazilian rosewood already require CITES permits under the treaty’s highest Appendix I level of protection and will continue to do so, very many stringed instruments that contain Indian rosewood... have not been subject to CITES permit rules. As the underlying threat to rosewood species is driven by a demand for large luxury furniture items, the music community successfully appealed to the CITES Parties to add an exemption for the small quantity of rosewood found in musical instruments so that permits would not be required when instruments are merely transported across borders for performances and personal use. Sales of these items across borders, on the other hand, will now require permits.