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  #16  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:13 PM
Fogducker Fogducker is offline
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I'm not a fan of Pete Rose but he DID get all those hits and didn't know the pitches. He should get into the HOF in his lifetime!

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  #17  
Old 01-16-2020, 06:16 PM
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I quit being a fan of MLB in 1994 when a strike ruined that season. Since that time I've followed events in the game from a distance with nothing invested emotionally. It has become clear to me over the subsequent years that MLB is a broken institution with inherent competitive imbalances, an intractable ownership hierarchy, a players union that caters to its elite rather than the rank and file, and a propensity for rule change and technology usage inconsistencies. This cheating scandal is just one more bit of evidence supporting the view that MLB as an institution is floundering.
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  #18  
Old 01-16-2020, 06:32 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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A key question would be, how common is sign stealing? Anyone have any solid historical information on that question?

I have vague memories of announcers (often ex-players, then as now) who would mention that batteries would change signs when the opposite team had a runner on second. Someone else has mentioned that it doesn't take high tech cameras to do this from the stands, that it was historically done with binoculars.

I get the impression that the current story has aspects being of perhaps more organized and pervasive (and maybe more effective?) but more importantly it also had the factor that some one "told" in an interview--not years later, but while many of those involved were still active.

That meant that the authorities' hands were forced to take some action.

Someone else mentioned doctoring baseballs to improve pitching, which has very long history. I have no idea how often it was done, but some similar story told of a team organizing it while the principles were still active (as opposed to a story about "the old days") would more likely cause some penalty.
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  #19  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
The funny thing is, cheating in baseball has been an accepted part of the game’s tradition forever. Things like “doctoring” baseballs with foreign substances were looked upon as part of the game if you could get away with it. I’m pretty certain there are still “corked bats” being used here and there.
Back in the old days, they used binoculars and sat out in centerfield stealing signs.
Then there’s the steroid scandal which people in the media knew about while it was happening and were silent.
When a society accepts deceit in professional sports as a means to an end, why are the talking heads “shocked?” They aren’t, they just pretend to be.
I partially agree that it has always happened. But, sign stealing by a teammate or person in the stands takes some time to relay it to the batter, so it doesn't always work. This was a real time camera direct to the dugout who then instantaneously signaled the batter. Hence, it was 100% effective.

However, I still don't know how the other teams didn't realize this almost immediately and switch their signs.
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  #20  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dru Edwards View Post
Anyone following the baseball sign stealing scandal?
Thoughts?
It is only a scandal when the scope of deceitfulness is revealed to the public. IMO, it is not much different than what goes on elsewhere.

Fortunately, daylight can sometimes have a wonderful impact, and baseball will endure
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  #21  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:44 PM
Dru Edwards Dru Edwards is offline
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Hi Dru,
I’m sensing that our team was in on it, too—and probably for a long time.

Lifetime bans may be in order. MLB sat on its hands while we applauded folk using performance enhancing drugs to get an advantage. Clemmons and Bonds probably make the Hall of Fame eventually.

Here, the outcome of at least one World Series was affected. Compared to that, Pete Rose’s actions were trivial.
Hey Jim, yep the Red Sox will get nailed for Cora's actions. I'll be interested to hear whether Dombroski was involved ... guessing he was as well.

Pete Rose: I think one of the big things that Rose did was that he denied what he did for decades. If he had admitted from the start he'd be in the HOF now. (I think so anyway).
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  #22  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:54 PM
Everton FC Everton FC is offline
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Since the steroid "juice" scandal, I've pretty much punted "America's Game". Sad, because this was a sport I played, and followed closely as a fan. I collected baseball cards as a kid in New York, spent countless afternoons and evenings at Shea Stadium w/my dad and brothers, managed to get dozens of autographed photos of my heroes...

These guys today, in the past 20-25 years, ruined the sport's innocence. I'll stick to Little League, going forward.

(Sad College Basketball's headed down the same path. Love it. Love the NHL, as well. And European "football". The NHL still has some level of respectability. I become more disinterested in "footy", each season. They've ruined sports. Just look at the travesty they still call "The Olympics". Rant over!)
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  #23  
Old 01-17-2020, 12:10 AM
Fogducker Fogducker is offline
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I don't think we should be shocked. Given a massive amount of money, it really doesn't matter if it's religion, gambling, politics, sports, charities, the "fund me" programs, even lotteries., there will ALWAYS be some people on the edges working the "con"! I'm sorry, that's just the way some humans are. About all we can do is make laws, and subsequent punishments, oh yeah, and keep our eyes open.

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  #24  
Old 01-17-2020, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
A key question would be, how common is sign stealing?
To me the key question is how this is construed as stealing when any television viewer can readily see the catcher signaling the pitcher when the station's center field camera is used? Stealing is when I have a $10 bill in my pocket and somebody reaches into my pocket and takes. It's not stealing when someone picks up that same $10 bill off the sidewalk where anyone could pick it up...

Last edited by RP; 01-17-2020 at 05:58 AM.
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  #25  
Old 01-17-2020, 05:16 AM
Otterhound Otterhound is offline
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Apparently , pitches have far less value than bases . Steal a base and you are lauded .
Somehow , I gotta believe that the pitchers will equalize this in the batters box once the news gets out . Keep your eyes open for pitches bouncing off of non vital parts of Astros and Red Sox batters in the coming season . Some of those guys better take some dancing lessons .
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  #26  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:21 AM
sevargnhoj sevargnhoj is offline
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It's stealing when you rob an armored car driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RP View Post
It's not stealing when someone picks up that same $10 bill off the sidewalk where anyone could pick it up...
It's probably stealing when the armored car has a wreck and the money is scattered across the highway where anyone could pick it up.
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  #27  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Dru Edwards View Post
Hey Jim, yep the Red Sox will get nailed for Cora's actions. I'll be interested to hear whether Dombroski was involved ... guessing he was as well.

Pete Rose: I think one of the big things that Rose did was that he denied what he did for decades. If he had admitted from the start he'd be in the HOF now. (I think so anyway).
Is there any evidence that Cora did it with the Sox or just speculation? Cora was canned because he admitted to what he did with Houston to the Sox front office and I imagined the optics looked bad... but all I've seen so far is speculation that the Sox did it too.
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  #28  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RP View Post
To me the key question is how this is construed as stealing when any television viewer can readily see the catcher signaling the pitcher when the station's center field camera is used? Stealing is when I have a $10 bill in my pocket and somebody reaches into my pocket and takes. It's not stealing when someone picks up that same $10 bill off the sidewalk where anyone could pick it up...
But teams are not supposed to have a feed of the game either for that reason.
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  #29  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:40 AM
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Is there any evidence that Cora did it with the Sox or just speculation? Cora was canned because he admitted to what he did with Houston to the Sox front office and I imagined the optics looked bad... but all I've seen so far is speculation that the Sox did it too.
Yes, there is evidence of the Sox doing something similar. Not sure if they banged on any trash cans

"Three people who were with the Red Sox during their 108-win 2018 season told The Athletic that during that regular season, at least some players visited the video replay room during games to learn the sign sequence opponents were using. The replay room is just steps from the home dugout at Fenway Park, through the same doors that lead to the batting cage. Every team’s replay staff travels to road games, making the system viable in other parks as well."

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/01/07...aling-in-2018/
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  #30  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RP View Post
To me the key question is how this is construed as stealing when any television viewer can readily see the catcher signaling the pitcher when the station's center field camera is used? Stealing is when I have a $10 bill in my pocket and somebody reaches into my pocket and takes. It's not stealing when someone picks up that same $10 bill off the sidewalk where anyone could pick it up...
Baserunners have been stealing signs forever. But it's a fairly simple matter for the pitcher and catcher to have a system where they change up their signs regularly (sometimes more than once for a single pitch) when there's a runner on second. And it's a rare baserunner who can decode all of that on the fly and relay information to the batter that quickly.

But when you have broken down video of a team to the point that you've cracked their entire code of alternate signs and you've got someone in the video room full time with a video feed and an automated way of breaking the code on every pitch and relaying that information electronically to the field, that's a whole other thing. A canny baserunner who figures it out and is able to tip a pitch is considered part of the game and should be able to be stymied by most catchers and pitchers. But an automated system based on a live video feed you're not supposed to have to begin with is something entirely different.

It's like if a guy corks his bat, he might get away with it for a while, but he's eventually gonna get busted and punished for it. But when there's a systematic use of steroids, it's like everyone is playing with a corked bat that, for a good long time anyway, there was no way to detect, that's something else. Well, other than looking at these guy's enlarged Frankenstein looking foreheads, but, you know, other than that...

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