Difference between Country/Blues/Bluegrass etc

[godfreydaniel]

OP: hopefully you’ll be doing a lot of listening to fill in the blanks. And as already mentioned, definitely watch the Ken Burns series on Country Music starting Sept. 15th on PBS.

Here’s an example of Boogie Woogie - Albert Ammons “Shout for Joy”:

https://youtu.be/xHPzJi0BkX8

A Gospel example - The Swan Silvertones “Oh Mary Don’t You Weep”:

https://youtu.be/d4hdWcxa0lQ

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by rwmct

I was a little surprised by the above. I have always seen bluegrass described as a style presenting a modern take on country. Under that analysis, the Carter family and other artists in the 20s and 30s are "country." Monroe starts out playing country, and later takes it into bluegrass, typically after signing up Scruggs.

I take it from your analysis that you see that 20s and 30s music as a precursor to country, and see country starting in the 40s or later? In your view, is Acuff country in the 30s, or does it become country later?

Or perhaps you see "bluegrass" existing prior to Scruggs coming onto the scene?

I know there is no simple "right" way to analyze all that, but I am curious about this.

You ask good questions. I have lots of informed opinions.

For me, the advent of the 20's was critical as this was the first time that music could widely be recorded, especially "in the field". With readily available recorded music, something changed: we all would know the "right" way to render a song and things started to become more standardized. And due to the need to market these songs, genres were established with better defined borders than had been in the past. And without recordings, the music of previous generations stayed lost, but with records, music would now be available to future generations.

I feel that both bluegrass and country music had roughly the same origin. The term "Bluegrass" was coined to refer to the music Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys played. It was harder-driving and more instrumentally dependent than much which had preceded it. It was it's own style. Listen to recordings of Bill and Charlie Monroe, then to Bill work with the Bluegrass Boys and you can see the progression. This is all well before Earl Scruggs came around. He set the standard for bluegrass banjo playing.

Country music began from the same stream, but stayed a bit more mainstream with emphasis on vocals and the lyrics. There was tons of overlap in the beginning and as each genre defined itself, the overlap lessened. You bring up Roy Acuff. He was transitional, first a fiddler, then discovered his vocals held greater appeal. The first inductees into the Country Music Hall of Fame were Jimmie Rogers and the Carter Family, both immensely popular in their time. Jimmie almost never sang folk material. Today, we'd call him a singer-songwriter. The Carters did less composing, but searched out singable songs from their part of the world, worked out arrangements, and recorded them. They also copyrighted much of their material. There was no one out there to object at the time, so they got away with it. Their songs were commonly sentimental. The two, along with others who imitated them or tried to find parallel ways to the top, formed the foundation of today's country music.

Along the way, an amalgam of big band swing and country developed in the western states, most notably Texas - and the term "Western" was added to the genre of Country. This was more marketing than anything else. It could have been just called "western Swing" as it is sometimes today. When the western parts popularity faded, it's name was commonly dropped and Country and Western became Country again.

Today it is America's most popular music as it still tells simple stories and sentiments shared by common folks, even though it's sound has developed to be more like early rock and roll than early country.

It is fun to watch how these things ebb and flow, branch out and die back.

[AndrewG]

They all rely to a great extent on the I, IV, V progression. The sentiments expressed are all pretty much the same; it's just the delivery which differs.

[Lwilliams]

In the mid-70s, I played fiddle with a major-label bluegrass act.
In the late-70s, I played guitar with a major-label rock act.
In the late-80's, I played guitar with a major-label country act.

I can tell you, from my well qualified position, there is much more in common with those than there is differences. Elements of them all, including the blues, show up in all the others.

The differences are primarily attitude, not music. And since I have professionally played all four of the styles for a living, I will tell you that bluegrass is the hardest of them all to play properly.

The "ear-blind" people really irritate and amuse me. Those who condemn or "hate" a particular style of music are only hurting themselves.

[davidbeinct]

American Epic is a pretty good early history of field recordings done by what are now major labels. It was done by PBS and is now available on Amazon prime. It gets into how a lot of this all started.

[rstaight]

I grew up on country music. My take on the difference between country and bluegrass is instrumentation.

In country it is primarily guitar for lead bass and rythm. With drums to keep tempo. Occasionally you have a banjo or fiddle part for flavor.

In bluegrass guitar is there for rythm. The leads go banjo, mandolin and fiddle. The bass is an upright. And no drums.

But you will find bits and pieces from all genres mixed in with all the others.

One of the best explanations I heard was "I can't tell you the difference but I know it when I hear it".

Just an opinion.

[rwmct]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I feel that both bluegrass and country music had roughly the same origin. The term "Bluegrass" was coined to refer to the music Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys played. It was harder-driving and more instrumentally dependent than much which had preceded it. It was it's own style. Listen to recordings of Bill and Charlie Monroe, then to Bill work with the Bluegrass Boys and you can see the progression. This is all well before Earl Scruggs came around. He set the standard for bluegrass banjo playing.

To me, the view that bluegrass came out of country has it right. Personally, I see bluegrass as just a variety of country music, not a separate thing at all. I am not sure I feel the same way about Western Swing.

But that comes more from my impressions of the history of the music than from analyzing it. I am not competent to do analyze it. (Of course, if the question had monetary value like a copyright dispute, there would be one musicologist testifying one way, and another saying the opposite. So much for expert opinion).

[LemonCats]

Originally Posted by godfreydaniel

Here’s an example of Boogie Woogie - Albert Ammons “Shout for Joy”:

https://youtu.be/xHPzJi0BkX8

Phweeeew! I would love to learn that on guitar!

[cdkrugjr]

Country: My man got drunk in a roadhouse, cheated on me with some floozy, so I shot him. Dobro or pedal steel solo

Bluegrass: My man got drunk on some bad moonshine and cheated on me with my cousin (who might also be his cousin), so I shot him and fed him to the hogs. Mandolin solo

[Caddy]

Originally Posted by mjudd

Bluegrass: Play "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" about 30% faster than you'd normally play it. After verse 1, do an instrumental verse with banjo. After verse 2, do an instrumental with guitar. After verse 3, instrumental with fiddle. After verse 4 a dobro instrumental. These are the only instruments in the band unless you have an upright bass player.

I believe you have forgotten one of the key instruments in bluegrass, the mandolin. And yes, an upright bass player is important. Our upright bass player had originally been a trumpet player in a German band. He picked up the bass really fast and even ended up doing a bit of session work in Nashville with other artists. BTW, I was the mandolin player and lead singer.

We had guitar, banjo, fiddle, mandolin, upright bass and a spoons/washboard player (who had been a drummer).

[archerscreek]

This video (Bluegrass fiddle tune) made me think of an analogy.

Say you've done something bad ...

Bluegrass is how you feel running from the cops

Country is how you feel after you got caught by the cops

Blues is how you feel after starting a sentence of 20 years hard labor.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tlq62f...e_continue=166

[JKA]

Or as someone quite famous once said..."It's ALL folk music"

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by JKA

Or as someone quite famous once said..."It's ALL folk music"

I think you may be referring to this Louie Armstrong quote.

“All music is folk music. I ain't never heard a horse sing a song.”

Must have been stated prior to this

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by LemonCats

This may be pretty abstract but,
Can you guys give a brief explanation on these genres? And maybe compare/contrast them?

Country, Bluegrass, Blues, Boogie Woogie, Gospel, Folk, Rag time (I think there are more similar genres but I'm forgetting their names)


Also are they are all sort of based on the blues? (besides ragtime, but i have heard bluesy ragtime before (reverend gary davis)) (And certain gospel pre-dating the blues)

MJudd did a great job with a concise answer, as did several others.

My opinion/judgement (based on a lot of listening, reading, playing, life, thinking....) on this subject that hasn't already been said.

Labels are just sticky paper. Yes, I know we need them because it helps us open the can we want from the musical pantry, but they're arbitrary and musicians who have those labels violate the contents listed on the paper all the time.

Of the above Folk and Gospel are two that are not like the others, as the first is a description of origin not really a style, and the second is a statement of usage/intent. Saying something is "gospel" is like saying something is dance music. It could be EDM, square dancing, or Viennese waltz. Saying something is folk music is like saying you bought it at a farmer's market: it might be a rutabaga, some earrings, or a taco.

What most of the others have in common is that they are North American musical styles, and they are all hybrids. The OP above suspects Blues is the basis, and that's too simplified (partly because the Blues is a hybrid) but if one has to pick one as the singular American home music, the Blues is your best choice. The OP worries that he's forgetting something, and one could add Jazz as another North American form that has a direct line from the Blues. Rock'n'roll and Soul and Rap/Hip Hop too.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by LemonCats

This may be pretty abstract but,
Can you guys give a brief explanation on these genres? And maybe compare/contrast them?

Country, Bluegrass, Blues, Boogie Woogie, Gospel, Folk, Rag time (I think there are more similar genres but I'm forgetting their names)


Also are they are all sort of based on the blues? (besides ragtime, but i have heard bluesy ragtime before (reverend gary davis)) (And certain gospel pre-dating the blues)

This is actually a very interesting question.

So, from a 71 year old Englishman that has been pretty much devoted to American music for, say, 61 years, these would be my definitions:

1. Country : we start with a bag of worms, because it ranges from the Carter family and Jimmie Rodgers to, well the CMA electronic stuff with a half dressed leggy blondes warbling in the front.

a) To me it IS music that can largely be played in 1st position chords (boom chick) with relatively simple/simplistic lyrics, with some acoustic instruments but also steel guitars, the odd Fender Tele, and drums, with one or more wearing a cowboy hat.

b) "Big hat" country music is commercial, i.e. designed to be much the same to what the algorithms say sells, and essentially AOR rock in a ... hat.

c) "Real" country, however, is a whole lot different, and there isn't much good that comes out of the big Nashville organisations - hence "alt -country.
People like Emmylou Harris (dropped by most US labels) Gillian Welch, hor club of Cowtown, and so many more.

d) New-country (?) There was also the Byrds to Eagles, Poco, Pure Prairie League type country which has proven very valid, appealing to music lovers rather than dancers.

e) Old-time - the real stuff where it all came from. Fiddles banjos and everyone playing the same stuff together.

f) "New" old time - such as Cahalen Morrison and Joe Ely, Trey Hensley and Rob Ickes, Pharis and Jason Romero, Mandolin Orange and a surprisingly large number of others. (intermixed with bluegrass influences as well - see below.

g) "Western" - as in Cowboy stuff, often with some Hispanic influences

h) "western" as in "swing" -

I could go on.

2. Bluegrass : This has a number of subdivisions:

a. Traditional : Stanley Bros, Monroe and their later followers.

b. "Newgrass" - not exactly new now - possibly started with New Grass Revival with a bass guitar (oh the horror).

c. New(er) bluegrass, like Infamous Stringdusters, Chris Thile, Mollie Tuttle, Billy Strings, etc.,etc. - a very vibrant scene but nt of great interest to the "industry".

All the above are categorised as, sadly "White American" but the following is largely "African American" and formerly called "Race Records/music". whatever.

Whilst it is terrible to divide music like this, one cannot diminish the influences of African American on ALL the above.

3. Blues (another bag of worms - from field hollers to BB King: country blues (mainly acoustic) to Chicago blues (mainly electric). So many sub divisions.

4. Boogie and Rag-time could (if pushed) be combined as most originated because they showed the more energetic and musically valid way of "swinging" and back beat. (Rag-time, means "ragging the time" - i.e. using the back beat and also varying the accents in the way that "western" music never really did. (apart from Klezmer, rembetika etc.)

NOTE: There are subdivisions and combinations of all the above and further influences that I've probably neglected.

One thing, we must acknowledge is that the many European and African influences has made American music remarkably varied and creative and all, mainly in the 20th century, whereas in the UK (for instance, we were still singing about going down the mines, fishing for herrings and fighting Napoleon, and often with a concertina - surely an instrument from hell).

and I haven't even mentioned Cajun/Zydeco!