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  #16  
Old 10-03-2012, 08:43 AM
Legolas1971 Legolas1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_in_NYC View Post
I bought my first two kits from KMG. I moved to scratch builds after those because there are simply more options available.
The KMG website has some very good info and reading the instructions will give you a better sense of what you are trying to accomplish with certain procedures. Simply knowing what you need to do, glue this piece to that piece, etc, can get you a guitar, but understanding WHY you need to do certain things will allow you to build scratch guitars later on. The articles on why the neck angle needs to be a certain way are very helpful.
Here is a link:
http://kennethmichaelguitars.com/
I am not posting this site as gospel. I found, and sometimes still find, the info contained there to be very helpful. For example, getting a seamless neck to body joint is great and makes for nice pics, but if the angle is off, you will have nothing but heartache when it comes time to string it up. I suspect, Sawdustdave, that you might have had neck set issues, but I am not sure what you mean by the saddle lifted up. Did the whole soundboard rise up under string tension? That is either an under braced soundboard or a neck set issue, or both. Tough to tell without lots of pics.
I have not ever had a problem with a hump in my fretboard extension. It has always laid flat and straight. I don't even need to glue it down. And no, I don't get buzzes from not gluing it.
Definitely check out the KMG instructions because he gives ways to accomplish many tasks without the need for expensive jigs or tools. It is a very common sense approach in my opinion.
Thanks Tony! Yes, I've been checking out KMG's site and I will
use it as a source. I agree, knowing the "why" is very important
and I'll strive to learn...
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  #17  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:15 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Legolas1971 View Post
Thank you Charles. What would be a good amount of tools to have
for a first build? Clamps in different sizes I know but what size chisels, etc...I don't wanna break the bank until I really think I'm going to continue building for the long term....
It makes sense not to go crazy buying tools for making a first guitar if you're not sure about making more than one.

Many who offer kits also offer lists of tools they recommend for the making of their kits. I'd suggest that is a good place to start.

What tools one wants, or needs, depends heavily upon the methods one uses, how many guitars one intends to make and the rate at which one wants to build them. Each person you ask will have a different list: some will include CNC machines while others hand planes.

One tool that most (small) instrument makers will probably agree upon is a cabinet or hand scraper. Sandvik and Lie Nielson are the best I've used, though there are many other brands that will also work very well.




Last edited by charles Tauber; 10-03-2012 at 09:20 AM.
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  #18  
Old 10-03-2012, 10:17 AM
ZekeM ZekeM is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
I've been thinking about this. I guess it depends a lot on how many you are making at one time and what methods you use. I have had little issue with having only a small number of clamps. But for a few high-pressure clamps - 4 or 5 "C" clamps and maybe a bar clamp or two - mostly I use lighter-duty quick release clamps, most notably wooden cam clamps of which I need perhaps a dozen or so. And, of course, clothes pins with rubber bands wrapped around their ends, rope, large elastic bands, surgical tubing, heavy weights, foam rubber and some masking tape.



If one is using a white or yellow glue, for most braces, 30-45 minutes of clamping time is sufficient - no need to wait "hours". Go bars with a "go deck" are certainly an advantage, but, if one is only making one or two guitars, it's a lot of work and expense. (Unless your tops and backs are flat, don't forget about some gluing forms, be they "dishes" or something else, that are required with the go deck.)
I am a machinist and therfor had several clamps available yet none were quite designed for woodworking. i had no cam clamps at all which i quickly learned was a mistake. I still havent ordered any but i believe by building a go bar deck and accessaries i can avoid having to use them though before its done i may have to get some anyway. Seeing that i am new to woodworking i alway let my glue joints sit for at least an hour before unclamping. sometimes more than that. im always afraid it will separate. im used to just bolting or welding things together and its immediately joined
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  #19  
Old 10-03-2012, 11:23 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by ZekeM View Post
I still havent ordered any but i believe by building a go bar deck and accessaries i can avoid having to use them though before its done i may have to get some anyway.
Why not make some? They are pretty easy to make and will last you decades.

Quote:
Seeing that i am new to woodworking i alway let my glue joints sit for at least an hour before unclamping. sometimes more than that. im always afraid it will separate. im used to just bolting or welding things together and its immediately joined
Welcome to woodworking. For joints of relatively small surface areas, 30-45 minutes is ample clamping time when using white or yellow glues. Full strength is developed in about 24 hours, but sufficiently strong in under an hour to allow you to unclamp. Best not to stress the joints - planing, etc. until more fully cured.

Joints with larger surface areas are best left clamped longer.

There are also woodworking glues with shorter open and clamping times, not to mention shorter open times and longer clamping times (e.g. hide glues).

There is a lot to know and learn.
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  #20  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:53 PM
ZekeM ZekeM is offline
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Default Scratch Build Rants

Thanks for the glue info. I'm very wary of the glue I went for the better safe than sorry approach. I guess I could make some cam clamps. I'll have to search for some plans. For some reason when it comes to wood I don't think of making tool like I do with metal. I guess because I don't consider myself a woodworker. Thanks again Charles.

Ps I can't wait to get my new neck design that you and arie helped me with. I'll be sure to post pics of it. I'm sure it will be far superior to what I did last time.
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  #21  
Old 10-03-2012, 11:24 PM
Richie H Richie H is offline
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I'm also in the process of building my first, I'm taking a build class and setting up my own workshop at home.. If you are handy enough, you can make your own side bender with the heating element of a 10 dollar bread-toaster, a block of wood, a piece of thin steel or aluminum and a light dimmer and save yourself the better part of 300 dollars. Also a go-bar deck is not that expensive to build your own.. only the radius dishes are a bit more expensive, but if you know someone with a CNC- machine..

My tools so far:
  • several cheap clamps
  • 4 chisels
  • a stanley # 5 plane
  • a stanley 91/2 plane
  • a wooden mini plane
  • a second hand drill press
  • electrical figuresaw (is this english?? )
  • a large vise (a small one would be nice for nuts and saddles, but two flat pieces of wood in the large vise also work)
  • a collection of scraper blades
  • a jigsaw (a bandsaw would be nice, but with some clamps and blocks of wood you can build your own tablesaw on a workmate, but do it safe!!!!!!)
  • small fine files
  • a large medium file
  • a course rasp?(dunno)

One thing I really need is a sharpening device for my plane blades and chisels.. I have tried to sharpen by hand with fine sandpaper on a flat surface and wetstones, but this doesn't work for me, so next month I will buy a low rev machine with a wetwheel and a leather wheel with some polishing paste.
Last but not least, a router! For acoustic builds only, a small one (bosch colt)will suffice and a few router bits. Almost there!

Bare basics for building and in time when the virus catches you, you will buy lots more items and tools you don't really need, but they make life easier..
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2012, 05:08 AM
dekutree64 dekutree64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie H View Post
One thing I really need is a sharpening device for my plane blades and chisels.. I have tried to sharpen by hand with fine sandpaper on a flat surface and wetstones, but this doesn't work for me, so next month I will buy a low rev machine with a wetwheel and a leather wheel with some polishing paste.
It took me a long time to find my ideal sharpening setup, but here's what I use now, and it works very well:

Two 8x3" DMT dia-sharp stones. Extra-extra-coarse (120 grit), and extra-fine (1200 grit). The XXC one makes quick work of rough grinding bevels and flattening backs of plane blades and such. Then the XF one makes quick work of smoothing out the scratch marks. Don't bother getting the XXF stone, it doesn't save much time for its price, and still leaves a pretty rough surface.

After that, get the set of 4 adhesive backed diamond lapping film sheets from Lee Valley (get the DMT stones there too, since they have the best prices), stick them to a very flat piece of glass or plexiglas, and run through all 4 of them. Mega sharp, and quick and easy with no power tools. I don't even bother with a micro bevel on the first sharpening, since the diamond films cut so fast I can just polish the whole primary bevel.

Oh, and you'll need a honing guide too. Mine is the cheap silver one you can get for $10-15 at most tool sites. Works great for plane blades, and reasonably well for most chisels.

The three highest priorities of sharpening, in my opinion, are:
1. All abrasive surfaces must be absolutely flat.
2. You must have one very coarse abrasive to get new blades into shape.
3. You must have one extremely fine abrasive for the final pass.

After those conditions are met, it's just a matter of finding a good set of intermediate grits to minimize time for the least cost
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  #23  
Old 10-04-2012, 05:42 AM
Richie H Richie H is offline
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You are very right, but here on a dutch forum I had the same discussion and there are pros and cons to stones.. Diamond stones are relatively expensive and my budget is limited. Once you have bought them, they're practically for life, that's true. And they work much faster then natural stones. And if you're not careful with natural stones, the edge of your blades will not be dead on straight.

The machine I'm talking about costs 140 euros, maybe 190 dollars. Good quality diamond stones, a honing guide (had the 1 from veritas, but sold it again) and the items you're talkin about are way more than that, at least in Europe. Importing them from the States is not very interesting, because I must pay VAT and custom fees, which are not cheap!

One advantage of the machine is that you create a hollow bevel and for most pro or semi-pro builders over here that is practically the holy grail... Plus, the machine saves a lot of time. You can argue that it's not very traditional, even my father agrees with that, but I have to make choices. I do almost everything else by hand, because I want to and it works very therapeutic, but sharpening is not one of my hobbies..

Before I started this build, I never had any experience with woodworking and I rather develop my woodworking skills than spend hours sharpening my tools.. I realize it's crucial, but I can make my life so much easier with a fairly limited budget.

BTW, excuse my use of the english language...
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:20 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Richie H View Post
The machine I'm talking about costs 140 euros, maybe 190 dollars...One advantage of the machine is that you create a hollow bevel and for most pro or semi-pro builders over here that is practically the holy grail... Plus, the machine saves a lot of time.
Which machine are you thinking of purchasing?

I have a Tormek which is probably much more expensive than that. It has a 60 rpm wheel in water and a leather wheel. I bought it mostly for sharpening turning (lathe) tools. It is adequate, not quick, and does not get chisels or plane blades as sharp as other methods, or as sharp as I'd like. It does do a good job on turning tools, though.

I think hollow-ground versus flat-ground is like religion: each person has his or her own belief. I've found very little, if any difference, between hollow or flat ground. Both work, neither seems better than the other to me.

Quote:
sharpening is not one of my hobbies..I rather develop my woodworking skills than spend hours sharpening my tools..
I couldn't agree more. Sharpening is overhead, time to be minimized.

I've tried just about every method out there in search of the quickest, least-messy method that produces an acceptable edge: there are many from which to chose. My current favourite for chisels and plane blades is Lee Valley's motorized sharpener. A friend of mine has a similar Worksharp brand unit that he likes - it is also cheaper. They ARE fast, with no mess, no water, no oil. Wish I'd bought one years earlier.

Diamond stones are also good, but much slower and messier. Ditto for sandpaper on glass, but you have the added effort of buying and replacing sandpaper.
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  #25  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:34 AM
Richie H Richie H is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Which machine are you thinking of purchasing?
It's this one: http://bouw.marktplaza.nl/gereedscha...P-23426521.htm

It's in dutch, but it's 120 rpm, a 220 grit stone, with 2 jigs to hold many sizes of blades..

At the same time I see that they don't have them anymore for this price, so I'm hoping I can get it somewhere else... dang! I had to choose last month, a nice 2nd hand guitar or this machine.. I obviously made the wrong choice...
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  #26  
Old 10-04-2012, 08:39 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Richie H View Post
It's in dutch, but it's 120 rpm, a 220 grit stone, with 2 jigs to hold many sizes of blades..
Interesting copy of the Tormek machine. The Tormek uses a "grading" stone to change the grit of the wheel back and forth between "coarse" and "fine", giving two abrasive levels/speeds with a single wheel.

Although the machine you are interested in turns at twice the speed, the stone is finer than the "coarse" Tormek. Even the coarse Tormek is pretty slow for any grinding/shaping type work. I'd expect this one would be also.

A 220 grit stone is pretty coarse to follow with abrasive pastes on a leather wheel. It'll work, but won't give the sharpest of edges, though, perhaps, sharp enough.

I also didn't find that the side of the stone worked particularly well for flattening the backs of blades and chisels and still needed some other means for that task.

It looks like a good machine, but be prepared for the idea that it may not solve 100% of your sharpening/shaping needs.

[*EDIT: spelling of "course", corrected to "coarse" - thanks, Murray, for pointing out the error.]

Last edited by charles Tauber; 10-16-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2012, 03:41 PM
clintj clintj is offline
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Haven't tried building a guitar yet, but I have built several furniture projects from jewelry boxes to a couple of dressers over the last several years. As far as sharpening goes, I really like Lee Valley's Veritas honing guide. I have developed the touch needed to freehand sharpen my chisels and planes, but still find it very handy for setting the initial bevel angle on new tools, and resquare and bevel secondhand ones. It works equally well on sandpaper and whetstones, and it's virtually impossible to sharpen a tool out of square. I use a Norton 220 grit stone for rapid removal of nicks and chips (don't you just hate it when you look up just in time to see a chisel roll off the table? ), and a combo 1000/6000 Japanese waterstone for honing and polishing. They cut really fast, even on hard tool steels. My bench chisels are literally razor sharp. With the right equipment, it takes me less than ten minutes to sharpen everything I used at the end of the day. The key for me is to sharpen often instead of waiting for the tool to get dull and killing an hour restoring the edge. I have to agree with those who say a machine may not give a good enough edge for this purpose. I wasted a couple of hundred dollars trying a couple, and the only one I kept was the Tormek for my turning tools. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2012, 04:15 PM
Richie H Richie H is offline
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Originally Posted by clintj View Post
I have to agree with those who say a machine may not give a good enough edge for this purpose. I wasted a couple of hundred dollars trying a couple, and the only one I kept was the Tormek for my turning tools. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
What I have discovered so far is that everyone has different means to sharpen their tools.. I tried it your way, with most of the same items, but it didn't work. My teacher at my build class sharpens all of his tools with a machine and some of the the pro builders I consulted at a Dutch forum also work the same way. A few gave me the advice not to use the leather wheel, instead use a piece of leather on a flat surface and give it a few streaks with a decent polishing paste.. One sharpens his tools with an ordinary benchgrinder, loses the burr with the stone and then uses his hand to polish the bevel:



He's a pro furniture builder for the last 30 years and practises lutherie on the side..

So, as we say here in Holland: There are many roads to Rome.. We will see, I will never surpass the amateur level and that's fine. I just want to have fun doing it.. I came from a very, very deep hole in the ground and this, among other things, keeps me from falling in again. And if my chisels are not as sharp as yours, but still do the job...
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Hohner Essential Pro EP1-SP (parlor)
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GAS in denial: I won't spend my hard-earned money on something I don't need!

Last edited by Richie H; 10-12-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2012, 08:12 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Richie H View Post
So, as we say here in Holland: There are many roads to Rome..
So, as we say here in Rome: There are many roads to Holland. Just kidding.


Quote:
We will see, I will never surpass the amateur level and that's fine. I just want to have fun doing it.. I came from a very, very deep hole in the ground and this, among other things, keeps me from falling in again. And if my chisels are not as sharp as yours, but still do the job...
Sounds like a great perspective. There are indeed many ways to accomplish things that will work to one's satisfaction. Have fun and let us know how it goes.
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