Archtops 101

[drplayer]

I'm intrigued by Archtops and always have been. Aesthetically I think they're cool looking, and I love the sound. I associate them with jazz, because that's my limited experience with them, but I'm sure they're much more diverse that that. Can anyone give me the scoop on them..."Archtops 101" so to speak.

Also, are there any good quality Archtops being made that won't break the bank (maybe under $1500)? I'd like to stay with an American made guitar, but price is a consideration since this is an experiment of sorts; so, Made in U.S.A. is not a must have. Thanks in advance for your help...

-Dale

[Taylorplayer]

PM sent...

[iim7V7IM7]

There is a whole World to Archtop guitars just like flat tops.

At the price range that you are considering, you are not likely to find a non-laminate American instrument but more likely from from China or Korea. archtops use more materials and take far more time to create than a flat top guitar.

Good luck

Originally Posted by drplayer

I'm intrigued by Archtops and always have been. Aesthetically I think they're cool looking, and I love the sound. I associate them with jazz, because that's my limited experience with them, but I'm sure they're much more diverse that that. Can anyone give me the scoop on them..."Archtops 101" so to speak.

Also, are there any good quality Archtops being made that won't break the bank (maybe under $1500)? I'd like to stay with an American made guitar, but price is a consideration since this is an experiment of sorts; so, Made in U.S.A. is not a must have. Thanks in advance for your help...

-Dale

[Eldergreene]

I have a Loar LH700, which is all-solid-woods, hand-carved top, sounds good & falls within your price-range; I'd highly recommend it as a good-quality 'budget' archtop, plus they do lower-spec models if you want to spend less.

[Steve DeRosa]

Some thoughts from a 50+ year archtop player...

1] Seek out some dealers who carry vintage pieces from the Big-Band era, and play as many as you can; there's a great deal of variability - far more so than in equivalent-quality flattops - and IMO there's no better way to tune your ear to the subtle tonal nuances of which these instruments are capable. Broadly speaking, archtop tone falls into four categories:

• the warm woodiness of Gibson
• the balance and "cut" of the New York Epiphones
• the piano-like richness of D'Angelico
• the raw explosive power of Stromberg

This is not to say that any given instrument may not possess some of the characteristics of another make (and contemporary luthiers, in many cases, attempt to integrate elements of each, whether by personal preference or at the request of a client). I've played Gibsons that were absolute cannons and Epis that were as sweet and mellow as you want, depending on who played them, how often, and how well - which leads me to...

2] Polish up your chops before you buy, for several reasons. First off, archtops, with their quick response and decay characteristics, are by nature far less forgiving of technical deficiencies; I often used my since-sold '47 L-7 to "enlighten" my shredder-wannabe students 15-20 years ago. If you've been a flattop player all your life, you'll need to adjust your technique in order to get the best out of an archtop; in accord with its violin-family roots, take a "bow" approach to tone production - "glide" rather than "pick," "stroke" rather than "strum" - if you wish to, in the lingo of veteran players, "coax the velvet out." Second, if you're thinking in terms of a carved-top instrument they take a long time - sometimes decades - to "break in" and reach their full tonal potential; unlike a typical flattop (and for reasons still not completely clear to me) it's easy to "play in," for better or worse, a very specific tonality - and near-impossible to get rid of it once it's there. As I stated above, play some '30s-40s bandstand veterans - you'll likely find that the best-sounding ones are those with wear distributed across the entire length/width of the neck and fingerboard, testifying to the developed technique of the original owner...

3] For reasons also not completely clear to me (and unlike their flattop cousins) laminated archtops can be capable of good-to-excellent acoustic tone with the right setup. While a vintage Gibson L-48 or Guild A-50 can easily sport a four-figure price tag, a fine-sounding modern-day equivalent can be found in the Godin 5th Avenue at around $500 (I own both acoustic and electric versions, BTW); Loar also markets the carved-top/laminate-back LH-300 in the same price range, and the recently-discontinued Epiphone Emperor Regent - a 17" visual homage to their New York roots that produces fine acoustic tone with a properly-fitted bridge base and a set of .013's - can still be found as NOS...

4] At the upper end of your price range, I'd ditto the Loar LH-700 as a must-play - imagine stepping back in time to 1928 and returning with a brand-new "Eddie Lang" L-5 and you'll understand my enthusiasm; be forewarned, however, that the neck dimensions are vintage-accurate - if you're used to modern neck profiles it can be more than a bit daunting. Eastman's all-carved AR605 (16") and AR610 (17") non-cut instruments are similarly priced; designed by the late Epiphone guru Jim Fisch, these have solid mahogany sides/backs, which produce a sweeter, mellower tonality than the customary maple. Finally, Gretsch's solid-top/laminated-back Synchromatic 400 is an excellent-playing/handling option, albeit heavier than the others - I've played more than a few since their introduction and IMO they're one of the most tonally-consistent archtops that you're likely to find for anything less than three times the price; whether that tone is your cuppa tea is open to debate (FWIW, I'm a fan), as some experienced players feel it's more akin to a jumbo flattop minus the extended, rumbling bass, than a true archtop tone...

5] When it's time to make your final decision bring along a friend with whose style/technique you are familiar, and have him/her take turns with you listening and playing; archtops tend to be more "projective" than flattops, developing their tone further in front of the instrument, so you may not be hearing the full tonal capabilities (or deficiencies) from a strict player's standpoint. FYI, there's a good deal of merit in this method - jazz great Al Caiola selected at least one of his Epiphones with the on-hand input of the equally-legendary Tony Mottola...

Hope this helps...

[major kong]

Great info Steve. I enjoyed reading it.

[bohemian]

Godin 5th Ave... best bang for the buck.

Light, fast, fun, modestly priced.. excellent tone considering laminated, made in No America... easily modded for very few bucks and reversible.

Go Go din

[Wade Hampton]

I was going to suggest that you check out Eastman solid wood archtops and Godin 5th Avenue laminated archtops, but see that Steve has already done so and with far more additional information than I could provide. Nice post, Steve.

My own experiences with archtops have been much more limited, though I did own a nice hand-built Mark Stanley archtop for a few years.

Steve made the point early in his post about needing to sharpen up your technique to play an archtop guitar, and I'll concur with him on that. Every note you play on an archtop stands out in stark relief when compared to the same thing played on an flattop, so if you have a watery sense of time or have allowed the lush tone of the flattops you're used to let you develop some bad habits, all of those things will be painfully obvious once you start trying to play the same music on an archtop.

But it can be very helpful, too. I had a similar experience when I started playing guitar-banjo: the quick decay of notes on a banjo made me sharpen up my sense of time considerably.

You'll find much the same thing if you start playing an archtop, so just be aware of that going in.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[drplayer]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Some thoughts from a 50+ year archtop player... Hope this helps...

Wow, what a wealth of fantastic information! Thank you so much for spending the time to answer my post so thoroughly. And a BIG YES...it definitely helped! Your info & history really has me jazzed (pun intended) to start my search.

Sincerely,
Dale

[Steve DeRosa]

Thanks, Dale - here's one that slipped my mind before:

http://elderly.com/fmic/items/A150B.htm

...and here's a demo (note what both Wade & I said about technique - this guy is an archtop player to the core):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjBsBtp6NXU

If you're interested you might want to move now, or else be prepared for a very long wait. They seem to be selling as fast as they arrive - Alto Music still had two (a blonde and a burst) last I checked (that might have changed in the last 20 minutes or so ), and Sweetwater was sold out with no projected arrival date. BTW, they resurrected the old DeArmond Rhythm Chief "redhead" pickup specifically for this model; if you've ever priced a late-50's original in good-to-excellent condition, with all hardware present and functional, it's as if you're getting the guitar for free...

[bohemian]

The Guild sounds great but, check the nut width at 1 .65 in.

The Godin is 1.72.

[Athana]

I'd say try a lot of good Archtops used ,and if they impresses on you that this type of guitar is the one for you, I say save up,and get a nice used L5.
If the experience is borderline get one of the good value foreign ones.
I have 18 guitars...top stuff..Ive always played rock..only one of these is a proper Archtop(L5CES)..I play so much better on that thing its ridiculous.
Perfect guitar.

[louparte]

Originally Posted by drplayer

I'm intrigued by Archtops and always have been. Aesthetically I think they're cool looking, and I love the sound. I associate them with jazz, because that's my limited experience with them, but I'm sure they're much more diverse that that. Can anyone give me the scoop on them..."Archtops 101" so to speak.

Also, are there any good quality Archtops being made that won't break the bank (maybe under $1500)? I'd like to stay with an American made guitar, but price is a consideration since this is an experiment of sorts; so, Made in U.S.A. is not a must have. Thanks in advance for your help...

-Dale

New: The Godin's are ok and made in North America. Don't expect a lot of acoustic volume out of them though - especially if you string it with electric strings.

Also check out the Guild Newark Street A-150B archtop. Around $1K.

Used: There are a lot of really inexpensive old Harmony & Kay arch-tops around. Go to EBay & see for yourself. They're vintage & the prices are so low - $99 & up. Spend a hundred bucks for a pick-up and you're in for under $300.

I have a hand-made arch-top from Vietnam. It's wider & deeper than any I've see being sold today. F-holes are larger too. So it has a lot of acoustic volume. I bought a Kent Armstrong floating mini-humbucker for it. I record more with that guitar than any other I own.

[reholli]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Some thoughts from a 50+ year archtop player...

1] Seek out some dealers who carry vintage pieces from the Big-Band era, and play as many as you can; there's a great deal of variability - far more so than in equivalent-quality flattops - and IMO there's no better way to tune your ear to the subtle tonal nuances of which these instruments are capable. Broadly speaking, archtop tone falls into four categories:

• the warm woodiness of Gibson
• the balance and "cut" of the New York Epiphones
• the piano-like richness of D'Angelico
• the raw explosive power of Stromberg

This is not to say that any given instrument may not possess some of the characteristics of another make (and contemporary luthiers, in many cases, attempt to integrate elements of each, whether by personal preference or at the request of a client). I've played Gibsons that were absolute cannons and Epis that were as sweet and mellow as you want, depending on who played them, how often, and how well - which leads me to...

2] Polish up your chops before you buy, for several reasons. First off, archtops, with their quick response and decay characteristics, are by nature far less forgiving of technical deficiencies; I often used my since-sold '47 L-7 to "enlighten" my shredder-wannabe students 15-20 years ago. If you've been a flattop player all your life, you'll need to adjust your technique in order to get the best out of an archtop; in accord with it's violin-family roots take a "bow" approach to tone production - "glide" rather than "pick," "stroke" rather than "strum" - if you wish to, in the lingo of veteran players, "coax the velvet out." Second, if you're thinking in terms of a carved-top instrument they take a long time - sometimes decades - to "break in" and reach their full tonal potential; unlike a typical flattop (and for reasons still not completely clear to me) it's easy to "play in," for better or worse, a very specific tonality - and near-impossible to get rid of it once it's there. As I stated above, play some '30s-40s bandstand veterans - you'll likely find that the best-sounding ones are those with wear distributed across the entire length/width of the neck and fingerboard, testifying to the developed technique of the original owner...

3] For reasons also not completely clear to me (and unlike their flattop cousins) laminated archtops can be capable of good-to-excellent acoustic tone with the right setup. While a vintage Gibson L-48 or Guild A-50 can easily sport a four-figure price tag, a fine-sounding modern-day equivalent can be found in the Godin 5th Avenue at around $500 (I own both acoustic and electric versions, BTW); Loar also markets the carved-top/laminate-back LH-300 in the same price range, and the recently-discontinued Epiphone Emperor Regent - a 17" visual homage to their New York roots that produces fine acoustic tone with a properly-fitted bridge base and a set of .013's - can still be found as NOS...

4] At the upper end of your price range, I'd ditto the Loar LH-700 as a must-play - imagine stepping back in time to 1928 and returning with a brand-new "Eddie Lang" L-5 and you'll understand my enthusiasm; be forewarned, however, that the neck dimensions are vintage-accurate - if you're used to modern neck profiles it can be more than a bit daunting. Eastman's all-carved AR605 (16") and AR610 (17") non-cut instruments are similarly priced; designed by the late Epiphone guru Jim Fisch, these have solid mahogany sides/backs, which produce a sweeter, mellower tonality than the customary maple. Finally, Gretsch's solid-top/laminated-back Synchromatic 400 is an excellent-playing/handling option, albeit heavier than the others - I've played more than a few since their introduction and IMO they're one of the most tonally-consistent archtops that you're likely to find for anything less than three times the price; whether that tone is your cuppa tea is open to debate (FWIW, I'm a fan), as some experienced players feel it's more akin to a jumbo flattop minus the extended, rumbling bass, than a true archtop tone...

5] When it's time to make your final decision bring along a friend with whose style/technique you are familiar, and have him/her take turns with you listening and playing; archtops tend to be more "projective" than flattops, developing their tone further in front of the instrument, so you may not be hearing the full tonal capabilities (or deficiencies) from a strict player's standpoint. FYI, there's a good deal of merit in this method - jazz great Al Caiola selected at least one of his Epiphones with the on-hand input of the equally-legendary Tony Mottola...

Hope this helps...

Very informative.

The point you make about playing style in #2 (bolded) is how I've always played, and would play, any guitar, flat top or otherwise, steel string or nylon. Just my style...less a mechanical act and more of a connection with the guitar as an entity...I know, probably too metaphysical for many, but that's just the way it is.

[Silly Moustache]

Like so many others I am delighted that this thread has elicited the comments and information of Steve Da Rosa which I read with keen enthusiasm.

I have three archtops including a '34 L-4 (f-holes) but I'm afraid I have never managed to fully overcome my bluegrass /country style in order to do it credit.

One thing I would like to add is that like the terms "parlour" and "slope-shoulder" the word "arch-top" is often mis-understood as there are many versions which developed as guitar usage evolved in the ;'20s to '40s.

The original arch tops were made by Gibson and, lie the mandolins - were modelled on the fiddle family principles.

The real land-mark is the 1922 Gibson L-5 which, like the Martin D-28 flat-top became the model on which most others were based.

The search was for an alternative instrument for the banjo players in jazz/dance bands as the music became more sophisticated. It was a rhythm/percussive instrument, with no thought of lead work imagined.

Whilst I prefer wider necks on my flat-tops and have moderate 1&3/4" nuts on my archtops - I now realise that narrow necks evoeved because of the closed chording style of the rythmn player who often needs to "kil" one or more strings.

The original archtops were purely acoustic instrumwents and built to maximise the "cut" of the guitar amongst brass line-ups, drums and paino
etc.

Come about 1935 - someone designed an electric magnetic pick-up and many decided to strap one onto their arch-top.

This cold be done by using a "floating" pick-up which does not contact the resonating top, and so the guitar could be both an electric and an acoustic.

Modifications by folks like Les Paul - wanted an electric guitar that looked like an acoustic and so simply put the two halves of the sound box either side of a 4" square log to which electrics are attached. This evolved to an arch top looking instrument but with a heavier less resonant top with a heavy wooden strutting into which electrics would be screwed. This is not an acoustic guitar and so is not really a true arch top.

Then the shapes evolved and and things like Gretsch 6120 and the Gibson ES335 etc., and so on until they left the guitar shape behind altogether with things like Fender solids.

So. and I realise that this might be provocative - there is the acoustic Arch-top guitar (solid or laminated top) and electric guitars (semi-acoustic, semi-solid whatever - which are electric guitars - which may or may not look like arch-tops but aren't really.

Right, that's my opinion of course and now I'm off to photograph the Battle of Britain Memorial flight - including our last flying Lancaster bomber.