Solar Panels for your home?

[Dru Edwards]

Does anyone have solar panels for their home while staying on the grid? Or have you done some research? I'm going to be building a new home next year and was looking into it.

Depending on various factors, such as amount of sunlight where you live, the payback period is 7 to x years. Also, some provinces (and I assume States) will give you credit if you use less electricity than your panels produce and go on the grid.

Your thoughts?

[Tico]

Solar panels seem like another technology that will plummet in price if you wait long enough.

I suspect they'll eventually be do-it-yourself-installable sold at Home Depot and Costco for a tiny fraction of what they cost today.

Then again, maybe not.
I heard some iPhones cost a thousand dollars now.

[AX17609]

In my area in the mid-Atlantic, houses with a mass of solar panels on the roof are having a hard time selling and languish on the market.

When I priced out solar options, the math supporting their use was extremely fuzzy and was based largely on fear of future out-of-control electrical prices. Also included was the assumption that you were suddenly going to own a set of highly energy-efficient appliances and use them in an energy-efficient way.

The price you sell your excess capacity isn't the same price that you buy it, because the sale price doesn't include all the various taxes and fees that get added the basic kilowatt charge.

My current house is so energy efficient I could probably get LEED certification. I did it with insulation, which is comparatively cheap.

I concluded that solar was an option only for poorly insulated, all-electric houses.

[Pitar]

You'll have to work out the math for the ROI but as one post notes, curb appeal: I give you the junk yard look.

Another aspect to consider, in conjunction with curb appeal, is structural integrity of their mounting and long term maintenance. They caused a lot of damage to my roof in one of our recent hurricane seasons, but that was a moment's revelation. Over time and exposure to varying winds, their mounts begin to work on the roof fasteners and insidiously begin to open the holes in the roof allowing water to penetrate. This was information from one of the roofers I met who see this kind of damage a lot in my area.

The best place is on the ground on solidly piled mounts. So, if you're keen on solar energy for your next home, find a plot that agrees with the sun's path and consider ground placement.

Mine were on the back half of my roof out of sight from the street. I had 9 panels secured with 8 fasteners each for a total of 72 holes damaged by a hurricane's power. The ceiling inside the house had to be replaced.

[architype]

I would put my money into building the most energy efficient envelope on the house and maybe plan your electrical system for potential future solar. Proper design and orientation of windows and shading overhangs to take advantage of passive solar gain are relatively cheap and have a big effect on supplemental heating.

Invest in a geothermal heat pump HVAC system. Depending on your region, and local electrical costs, the payback period is relatively short. These systems also have fewer parts to break so they last a long time with minimal maintenance.

If you decide to go with solar panels, I would recommend putting them on the ground or incorporate them into a fence line or some other structure. The panels need to be cleaned occasionally to maintain maximum efficiency. Much easier and safer if they are on the ground.

Consider using structurally insulated panels, (SIPs) , for your wall and even your roof system. Very strong, highly efficient and they go up pretty fast. I've used them on timber frame houses and the owners can't believe how cheap their utility bills are. Also very good at sound insulation. ..very quiet inside.

Small residential wind mills are available at a fraction of the cost of solar. More unobtrusive than a roof covered in panels. They won't generate as much power, but can suppliment your needs.

If your planning on building in a subdivision check their restrictions before buying a lot. Some can be pretty snooty about what they allow you to do on your own property.

I don't have anything against active solar, but you really need to plan well for it and it is still expensive compared to just about anything else you can do.
Your payback will be quicker if you build a high efficiency home.



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[srick]

Dru - I personally haven’t done it, but know quite a few in our neighborhood who have. In the Northeast US, the payback is longer. There used to be a tax incentive program, but I believe that has now lapsed.

Plus, we have trees and cloudy days. If you ever need roof repairs or new shingles, it will complicate the issue. My guess would be that with new construction, you can alleviate several issues with good advance planning and design.

There are some great suggestions in the comments here.

I will echo the heat pump idea as that is a big percentage of our utility costs in the Northeast. Also, being off the grid may become much simpler as home batteries become ubiquitous. In our region, many rural homes have some sort of generator for use during outages.

Good luck with your build!

Rick

[Dru Edwards]

Great responses - thanks Everyone. Extra insulation /efficiency and a heat pump are options that I'm also looking at.

[KevWind]

Dru as a retired builder I would say -architype- is spot on

Passive solar orientation (which should be a code regulation for new construction IMO) and efficient energy design, will cut your electric usage by 30% to 60% (depending on the location) and as architype noted plan the instillation of the main electrical system for easy access for possible switching to solar in the future is IMO the best option...... That is what I would do if building new .

[JCook1]

We had solar panels installed on two roof sides of our house the day after Christmas 2015 (it was over 50 degrees). We didn't buy or lease them, we have a Purchased Power Agreement (PPA) with Solar City to pay them 15.7 cents per kw for 20 years. At that time the electric company (Eversource) was charging 23.7 cents, and preparing to raise their rates. We have the option to buy them after 5 years. After we turned them on our electric bill went from $250-300 a month to less than $100. We do use some power from Eversource at night and when the light is dim in the day time, but for at least 6 months of the year the Eversource bill says "No Payment Due," and the Solar City bill is about $75-85 a month, sometimes less. When we have to also pay Eversource (usually in the winter) the bill is around $27. This is one of the best things we've ever done.

Jack

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Dru as a retired builder I would say -architype- is spot on

Passive solar orientation (which should be a code regulation for new construction IMO) and efficient energy design, will cut your electric usage by 30% to 60% (depending on the location) and as architype noted plan the instillation of the main electrical system for easy access for possible switching to solar in the future is IMO the best option...... That is what I would do if building new .

Kev, thanks for chiming in. I'm going to start some research on efficient energy designs.

Originally Posted by JCook1

We had solar panels installed on two roof sides of our house the day after Christmas 2015 (it was over 50 degrees). We didn't buy or lease them, we have a Purchased Power Agreement (PPA) with Solar City to pay them 15.7 cents per kw for 20 years. At that time the electric company (Eversource) was charging 23.7 cents, and preparing to raise their rates. We have the option to buy them after 5 years. After we turned them on our electric bill went from $250-300 a month to less than $100. We do use some power from Eversource at night and when the light is dim in the day time, but for at least 6 months of the year the Eversource bill says "No Payment Due," and the Solar City bill is about $75-85 a month, sometimes less. When we have to also pay Eversource (usually in the winter) the bill is around $27. This is one of the best things we've ever done.

Jack

Sounds like it's working out well for you, Jack. I think the only option I have available is to purchase the panels.

[Truckjohn]

The best possible time to install them is where you are at now - during new construction. Everything always costs more to add on later - and you can wrap it up into the new home financing.

So I say do it!

Do some research to see how the local laws and state regs run - this will help you determine how big your system needs to be. Most state regulations now allow you to offset up to 100% of your annual electric consumption. But you won't get paid a cent for extra. That means you want to size your system for or slightly below the planned consumption.

Generally in real life - installed grid tied solar runs $2/watt. So a 10kw system runs around $20k installed.

On the other hand - energy efficient home designs cost you *way* less than the solar cells per watt. For example - LED bulbs vs CFL cost maybe $1 more per bulb but use 20 watts less - $0.05/watt saved... High efficiency insulation in the floors, walls, and attic is only a tiny upcharge when you are building... As are large HVAC ducts and registers. As are Modern high efficiency HVAC/heating systems....

So it absolutely makes sense to do all that stuff in the initial build to cut your installed solar requirement. For example - if you can improve the efficiency of the enclosure so you only need 7kw vs 10kw - that brings down the price of the solar install $6k. But it will probably cost you less than $3K in materials upcharges during initial construction.... So you end up coming out $3k ahead and still having a power bill that runs at the minimum $35 connection fee (or whatever).....

Then roll the $200 you would have spent on the electric bill back into the house payment and pay it off that much faster.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

Kev, thanks for chiming in. I'm going to start some research on efficient energy designs.



Sounds like it's working out well for you, Jack. I think the only option I have available is to purchase the panels.

Well I have been out of building game for almost 10 years now BUT In a very general sense "passive solar orientation" In the US basically means

Facing one long side of the building South or South South East (my personal choice) and having the most and biggest windows on that side with the least and smallest windows on the North side.
The rest is a bit more technical like eaves of sufficient length to hight ratio (determined by latitude ) , to shade most of those S. or S.E. windows at the Summer solstice , and let direct sunlight well into the house at Winter solstice .
Roof insulation at R 45, walls at R 22, Tyvek or similar House wrap (may be code depending on location) and as good of Low E windows as you can afford etc. etc. etc.

[RedJoker]

I'm in Ohio and installed my panels myself. Payback for us is in the 4 year range but that's because I did all the labor and just had it inspected. I'm a huge fan of solar but the above comments are correct that it's far better / cheaper to just build so you use less power. Once you do that, though, solar is a great way to go.

[architype]

If you build a high efficiency air tight home, you may want to consider an air to air heat exchanger to maintain proper air changes and keep the air in the house from getting stale and unhealthy.

A heat exchanger pulls in fresh air from the outside and exhausts stale air from the inside. It takes the heat out of the exhausted inside air and uses it to pre-heat the fresh outside air. Old drafty houses can have better inside air quality than the new tight houses because they naturally have more air changes per hour due to leakage.


I didn't want to sound like I was discouraging you from solar panels in my earlier post. I hope that one day it will be common to include panels, (or some variation), as part of every house built. I believe energy independence should start at home with everyone generating their own energy rather than totally depending on a utility company.
I think active solar makes more sense when your local utility has a program to buy your energy and pass it down the line. Battery storage technology is getting better, but not ideal. You also have to devote square footage to store the batteries.

I would encourage you to hire a design professional to help with the design and planning of your home. It may be difficult to adapt a stock plan to do everything well that you want to do. Hire someone that has experience in solar design and also residential design. I would avoid commercial architects. I know very talented architects that can create beautiful schools and churches and public buildings, but couldn't design their way out of a paper bag when it comes to a house. You might be surprised at how affordable a residential architect's fees can be.

You also might want to find a builder that is sympathetic to what you are trying to accomplish...an architect can be of great assistance with this. They can steer you to the better builders they have worked with. Most builders see dollar signs when they get out of their comfort zone. You don't want to pay for his on the job training.


Site selection is critical due to trying to optimize your southern exposure. A site that is conducive to solar design will put you way ahead of the game. Buy the site before you start designing the house. I cannot express the importance of this point enough. This is true of any house, but especially important for solar design.
The site will inform you as to how the house wants to sit on it. Where the sun will be at certain times of the day will help you to place interior spaces to take advantage of the light and free heat. You can't design a good house unless you know where the views are, placement of porches and overhangs to shade the sun, which rooms for early light and which rooms for later light. Does the grade allow for a walkout basement without expensive retaining walls and also adequately drain the water away.?


There is much to consider and good planning will save you money for the life of the building.

[robj144]

Tesla also has their solar roofs now. They might be a good solution if you also need a new roof.