The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Archtops

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 12-13-2013, 08:29 PM
peterbright peterbright is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 472
Default

I have a Heritage H575 that can be played (and is on occasion) acoustically. It is an archtop with oh my gosh two pickups. It belongs in this section.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-14-2013, 07:44 AM
louparte louparte is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 361
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenchimneys View Post
Just had to vent. Why is there so much electric content flooding this archtop specific forum recently? I really had high hopes for this section when it debuted, hoping it would feature some interesting threads on archtop acoustics, not hollowbody and semihollowbody electrics. An archtop is an acoustic instrument, floating pickup or not. Could we perhaps keep the electric content where it belongs for those of us interested in archtops and not hollowbody electrics?
My archtop would only be half the guitar it is without a pickup.



Magnetic pickups are part of the archtop identity. I'm not much interested in thin-body electric archtops personally. But they're archtops.
But I have no use - zero - for a purely acoustic archtop, although mine functions just fine (thank you) as an acoustic archtop. It has plenty of acoustic volume & tone. And it sounds fabulous plugged in with tremolo. It's a Jekyll/Hyde monster. That's what archtops are. Unplugged, they're Dr. Jekyll. Plugged in - they can be Mr. Hyde. I want both.
__________________
Ceci n'est pas une pipe bebe.

Youtube

France (Film Musique & Fantomas)
---
Guitars: (2007) big Vietnamese archtop; (1997) Guild F65ce,
(1988) Guild D60, (1972) Guild D25, two other Vietnamese flat-tops and one classical.


Last edited by louparte; 12-14-2013 at 07:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-14-2013, 09:48 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 234
Default

I agree with the OP. Archtop discussion on the AGF should be about acoustic archtops, and I certainly include such guitars equipped with floating pickups. But 335s and Gretsches and other 100% electrics with arched laminated tops - not so much. Plenty of that chatter abounds on other fora.
__________________
Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018
1928 Gibson L-5
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-14-2013, 10:34 AM
Livingston's Avatar
Livingston Livingston is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Winchester, CA
Posts: 4,180
Default

It doesn't bother me at all, that there are posts in the Archtop section, about archtops with pickups.

I would guess that 90% of modern day archtops, those made from the 60's through present day, have some sort of stock pickup system…maybe it's more than 90%. Even boutique archtops are often built with pickups.

In my opinion, the sound of the modern archtop is an amplified sound especially in jazz. For me, the quintessential sound of the archtop is an ES175 with top mounted humbuckers through a Fender Deluxe Reverb amplifier. No doubt there are a thousand different flavors of that quintessential sound (different archtop/pickup/amp combinations) but for me, this is what I hear when I think about the sound of an archtop.

While semi-hollow guitars don't immediately come to mind when I think archtop, builders often consider them to be of the archtop class. After all, very similar construction to their fully hollow brothers including carved or pressed/laminated tops and backs.

I don't post too often, but I do enjoy reading about all types of archtops in this section.

My 2 cents.
__________________
“Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself”
— Miles Davis.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-14-2013, 11:33 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Isle of Albion
Posts: 22,067
Default

Hi, I don't want to cause a war on this "Acoustic Guitar Forum" which does have a section for both Archtops, and electric guitars, but to better understand the situation let us look at the development of these things !

Ol' Mr Gibson decided to re-design the mandolin to make it a more efficient instrument based on the designs of the fiddle family, and did it rather well, or at least those who followed him in the Gibson company did.

Then - they tried to apply it to guitars, well frankly the earlier ones weren't great - I know - I used to have a 1915 L-3.

However, by 1925 - and ni response to the evolution of dance band and jazz music they came up with what many still regard as the ultimate Archtop guitar - the L-5.

Things went on apace with many other companies making similar instruments - not least Epiphone and Stromberg and a number of gents of Italian extraction with names prefixed by D'.... and all battled with each other to make bigger and bigger archtop guitars.

As jazz/dance bands grew larger there was a constant demand for louder rhythm guitars - Martins made the OM, and then the "Dreadnought, and even tried a series of unsuccessful archtops. National made Resophonic instruments all trying to meet the market.

The development of guitars in general, made enormous steps in the ten years between about 1920 and 1935

And then, in 1931 or thereabouts some-one had the crazy idea of sticking an electronic device on a plank of wood, and connecting it to an amplifier and speaker. As Hawaiian music was "a la mode" some fitted them to lap-style instruments to amplify their sound. Whilst it sounded pretty awful, but it also offered a way for big band guitarists to chunk a louder rhythm.

People started fitting these electric devices to their guitars - mainly archtops, and soon the industry responded by selling guitars with the things already stuck on. Gibson introduced the ES-150 in about 1936 (ES-Electric Spanish) and some musicians effectively developed new styles - as the guitar could now be made loud enough (regardless of the tone) they could move from being percussive rhythm instruments to soloing instruments - think Charlie Christian.

Initially and continually and acoustic archtop could be equipped with a "floating" pickup screwed to the end of the fretboard - thereby leaving the acoustic sound unaffected.

Matters progressed and soon the idea of fitting numerous pick-ups and it seemed logical to screw the pick-ups directly onto the top, this caused both feedback problems and ruined the acoustic resonance so they simply forgot the acousticality and installed large planks glued inside the top to provide a firm placement of the pick-ups.

At this point - it is my opinion that such instruments are no longer acoustic guitars, but electric guitars.

I know that many guitarists like to distinguish hollow-body, semi-solid, and acoustic-electric but but if an instrument had electronics in preference to acoustic tone then tom me at least they are electric guitars not acoustics.
I also know that they beli9eve that the different bodies give their electric guitars different tones although I find that difficult to understand as the guitar bodies are merely receptacles for the electrical pick-ups.

The shapes of guitars like these often retained the looks of acoustic archtops, - probably because no-one really thought about an alternative until Les Paul, and Leo Fender came on the scene and abandoned the shapes, sizes and depth of acoustic archtops.

Therefore I would suggest that the Archtop group be for those with acoustic archtops and also Acoustic arch-tops with a floating pick up whilst discussing the acoustic aspects, but that the "Electric guitar" category be used for any discussions about guitars with [pick-ups affixed to the top, and for any discussions of the electrics.

Then, of course we need to address the world of flat-tops made not for acoustic purposes but also made mainly for amplification - like the "performing Artist Martins.....?.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-14-2013, 02:12 PM
jimmy bookout jimmy bookout is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: charlotte, n.c.
Posts: 2,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
But where do you draw the line?

Does an L5 CES qualify? How about one of Linda Manzer's creations, with a set pickup, like Julian Lage plays?

Does an old all acoustic birch plywood harmony count?
Jeff,
The L5CES is an electric guitar. The top is carved thicker (to avoid feedback). Play a L5CES beside a L5 acoustically and the difference is obvious. Set pickup guitars are, most of the time, NOT the same instrument as their acoustic brothers. Material doesn't matter, IMO, so yes, a plywood Harmony is an acoustic guitar. Maybe not a great (or good) one, but....

I agree with the OP, and we ALL know an acoustic guitar when we see one, and we all know an electric guitar when we see one. There's never been an acoustic (mic'd) recording of an ES-175

Jimmy
__________________
Avian Skylark
Pono 0000-30
Gardiner Parlor
Kremona Kiano
Ramsay Hauser
Cordoba C10
Chris Walsh Archtop
Gardiner Concert
Taylor Leo Kottke
Gretsch 6120
Pavan TP30
Aria A19c
Hsienmo MJ

Ukuleles:
Cocobolo 5 string Tenor
Kanilea K3 Koa
Kanilea K1 Walnut Tenor
Kala Super Tenor
Rebel Super Concert
Nehemiah Covey Tenor
Mainland Mahogany Tenor
Mainland Cedar/Rosewood Tenor

Last edited by jimmy bookout; 12-14-2013 at 02:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-14-2013, 02:17 PM
jimmy bookout jimmy bookout is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: charlotte, n.c.
Posts: 2,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterbright View Post
I have a Heritage H575 that can be played (and is on occasion) acoustically. It is an archtop with oh my gosh two pickups. It belongs in this section.
Then your 575 is TOTALLY different from mine....
The H-575 IS an electric guitar and should not be in an acoustic guitar conversation any more than a Martin D18 with K&K pickups should be in an electric guitar discussion.
To me, it's simple. If you can record a guitar with microphones, it's an acoustic guitar. My Eastman Pagelli has 2 pickups on it (floating magnetic and undersaddle) but it is very clearly an acoustic guitar (see below)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwSIXrfMqA4

Jimmy
__________________
Avian Skylark
Pono 0000-30
Gardiner Parlor
Kremona Kiano
Ramsay Hauser
Cordoba C10
Chris Walsh Archtop
Gardiner Concert
Taylor Leo Kottke
Gretsch 6120
Pavan TP30
Aria A19c
Hsienmo MJ

Ukuleles:
Cocobolo 5 string Tenor
Kanilea K3 Koa
Kanilea K1 Walnut Tenor
Kala Super Tenor
Rebel Super Concert
Nehemiah Covey Tenor
Mainland Mahogany Tenor
Mainland Cedar/Rosewood Tenor

Last edited by jimmy bookout; 12-14-2013 at 02:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-15-2013, 10:05 PM
Livingston's Avatar
Livingston Livingston is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Winchester, CA
Posts: 4,180
Default

The archtop is an attitude; it's a way of life; it's a place far away; it's a place deep in your heart; it is what it is.

First time I ever saw Bill Frisell play anything but a tele...

http://www.fretboardjournal.com/vide...eable-you-solo
__________________
“Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself”
— Miles Davis.

Last edited by Livingston; 12-15-2013 at 11:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-16-2013, 07:35 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Huntington Station, New York
Posts: 7,604
Default

Hi Andrew,
Very, very well put. You hit the nail squarely.

I think the problem is the perception of 'inclusion' vs 'exclusion', and people wanting to believe that they're a part of something when they're not.

If the door is slightly ajar…..

It shouldn't be a big deal, but it is, unfortunately.

Best regards,
Howard Emerson




Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
Hi, I don't want to cause a war on this "Acoustic Guitar Forum" which does have a section for both Archtops, and electric guitars, but to better understand the situation let us look at the development of these things !

Ol' Mr Gibson decided to re-design the mandolin to make it a more efficient instrument based on the designs of the fiddle family, and did it rather well, or at least those who followed him in the Gibson company did.

Then - they tried to apply it to guitars, well frankly the earlier ones weren't great - I know - I used to have a 1915 L-3.

However, by 1925 - and ni response to the evolution of dance band and jazz music they came up with what many still regard as the ultimate Archtop guitar - the L-5.

Things went on apace with many other companies making similar instruments - not least Epiphone and Stromberg and a number of gents of Italian extraction with names prefixed by D'.... and all battled with each other to make bigger and bigger archtop guitars.

As jazz/dance bands grew larger there was a constant demand for louder rhythm guitars - Martins made the OM, and then the "Dreadnought, and even tried a series of unsuccessful archtops. National made Resophonic instruments all trying to meet the market.

The development of guitars in general, made enormous steps in the ten years between about 1920 and 1935

And then, in 1931 or thereabouts some-one had the crazy idea of sticking an electronic device on a plank of wood, and connecting it to an amplifier and speaker. As Hawaiian music was "a la mode" some fitted them to lap-style instruments to amplify their sound. Whilst it sounded pretty awful, but it also offered a way for big band guitarists to chunk a louder rhythm.

People started fitting these electric devices to their guitars - mainly archtops, and soon the industry responded by selling guitars with the things already stuck on. Gibson introduced the ES-150 in about 1936 (ES-Electric Spanish) and some musicians effectively developed new styles - as the guitar could now be made loud enough (regardless of the tone) they could move from being percussive rhythm instruments to soloing instruments - think Charlie Christian.

Initially and continually and acoustic archtop could be equipped with a "floating" pickup screwed to the end of the fretboard - thereby leaving the acoustic sound unaffected.

Matters progressed and soon the idea of fitting numerous pick-ups and it seemed logical to screw the pick-ups directly onto the top, this caused both feedback problems and ruined the acoustic resonance so they simply forgot the acousticality and installed large planks glued inside the top to provide a firm placement of the pick-ups.

At this point - it is my opinion that such instruments are no longer acoustic guitars, but electric guitars.

I know that many guitarists like to distinguish hollow-body, semi-solid, and acoustic-electric but but if an instrument had electronics in preference to acoustic tone then tom me at least they are electric guitars not acoustics.
I also know that they beli9eve that the different bodies give their electric guitars different tones although I find that difficult to understand as the guitar bodies are merely receptacles for the electrical pick-ups.

The shapes of guitars like these often retained the looks of acoustic archtops, - probably because no-one really thought about an alternative until Les Paul, and Leo Fender came on the scene and abandoned the shapes, sizes and depth of acoustic archtops.

Therefore I would suggest that the Archtop group be for those with acoustic archtops and also Acoustic arch-tops with a floating pick up whilst discussing the acoustic aspects, but that the "Electric guitar" category be used for any discussions about guitars with [pick-ups affixed to the top, and for any discussions of the electrics.

Then, of course we need to address the world of flat-tops made not for acoustic purposes but also made mainly for amplification - like the "performing Artist Martins.....?.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-16-2013, 04:46 PM
J.R. Rogers's Avatar
J.R. Rogers J.R. Rogers is offline
AGF Owner & Founder
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Durango, CO
Posts: 8,507
Default

Interesting discussion. Thanks, everyone. At the AGF, we're going with the more modern definition of the term which may include hollowbodies and pickups and a little extra wood in the middle.

JR
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-17-2013, 12:09 AM
Everettjago Everettjago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 6
Default Collings. Archtops

Has anyone played a Collings Acoustic archtop. The talk is he nails the design perfectly.

Last edited by Everettjago; 12-17-2013 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Mistake in definition
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:18 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy bookout View Post
Jeff,
The L5CES is an electric guitar. The top is carved thicker (to avoid feedback). Play a L5CES beside a L5 acoustically and the difference is obvious. Set pickup guitars are, most of the time, NOT the same instrument as their acoustic brothers. Material doesn't matter, IMO, so yes, a plywood Harmony is an acoustic guitar. Maybe not a great (or good) one, but....

I agree with the OP, and we ALL know an acoustic guitar when we see one, and we all know an electric guitar when we see one. There's never been an acoustic (mic'd) recording of an ES-175

Jimmy
Joe Pass' virtuoso album is a mic'd 175.
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-17-2013, 03:47 PM
s2y s2y is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Somewhere middle America
Posts: 6,594
Default

I don't recall that the forum specified requirements for archtops.

That being said, purely acoustic archops would be a pretty small group. That would be a tad boring.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:50 PM
uburoibob uburoibob is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 53
Default

Perhaps a thread devoted to acoustic-only archtops? Defining an acoustic archtop as an archtop guitar that has no pickup cut into it, is made of at least a solid conifer-wood top, and uses bronze instead of flatwound strings? Floating pickups are OK.

Then another thread devoted only to electric archtops? Laminated construction or solid wood with a pickup cut into the wood?

Just a thought...

Bob
__________________
Bob Martin

• Martin 00-42K Robbie Robertson
• Steve Andersen Emerald City Reserve
• Steve Andersen Little Archie (one piece back)
• Collings UT2K Uke
• Larrivee Soprano Uke
• 2 Ken Parker Flys
• PRS Hollowbody II
• PRS Santana
• PRS Mira X
• Joe Yanuziello Electric Guitar
• Tom Anderson Short-T Classic
• Fender Strat
http://bobmartin1111.com
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-17-2013, 07:06 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,188
Default

I fail to see the big deal...it's hollow, the top curves, let's quit whining and talk about 'em.
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Archtops

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=