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  #1  
Old 10-29-2020, 08:52 AM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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Default String tension on 12 string for weird tuning

Hey all, I started a thread a couple weeks ago inquiring about alternate tunings on a 12 string, and now that I’ve acquired a larrivee 12 I’ve been experimenting. One thing I’ve tried is tuning the bass pairs to 5ths rather than octaves - it actually sounds pretty cool! Only problem is that those thin octave strings get rather floppy tuned down so far....so I’ve acquired some singles to try. Got elixir 10s on now and for the e (going to be tuning down to d a lot as well) I was going to go from .027 to .030....For the d, .012 to .015. Not sure if I’ll do the a pair, but I could go from .018 to .022.

The thing is, I want to be able to go back to standard tuning as well, and I’m wondering about the increased tension of tuning these thicker strings up to normal pitches. Any thoughts? I love the larrivee and obviously don’t want to potentially run into any neck or bridge problems.
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2020, 11:21 AM
donlyn donlyn is offline
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Somewhere on the inter-web there is a site that has a calculator for individual string tensions. I don't have a URL for it, but found it by searching around. It does exist. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more than one. May be also mentioned somewhere in on-line posts.

Don
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05 Taylor 512ce L10 all mahogany Grand Concert
09 Taylor all walnut Jmbo
16 Taylor 412e-R sitka/rw GC
16 Taylor 458e-R s/rw 12 string GO
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  #3  
Old 10-29-2020, 01:05 PM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donlyn View Post
Somewhere on the inter-web there is a site that has a calculator for individual string tensions. I don't have a URL for it, but found it by searching around. It does exist. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more than one. May be also mentioned somewhere in on-line posts.

Don
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Ok, thanks don, I’ll look for that . I guess I’d still be wondering how much extra tension the guitar could handle.
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  #4  
Old 10-29-2020, 01:36 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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D'Addarrio used to have a nice comprehensive string tension chart on their web site, but it became hard to find with the last web site revamp. I have seriously explored tension for altered tunings, and for doing things like converting a regular scale guitar into a pseudo-baritone, using heavy strings tuned down to C-c. I even built a spreadsheet to capture several scenarios that were under consideration.

The typical modern twelve string guitar is braced for ~250 pounds total tension tuned E-e using a 47-10 light gauge set. As long as you keep the overall tension value in that range and don't over-stress any given string, there likely is not a big problem. Side story: a couple of years ago I ordered a custom carbon fiber Emerald X20-12. It came wearing medium gauge strings at 54-12 and was tuned up to standard pitch or E-e. That was a real handful to play! Total tension of that set was 336 pounds. I took off half of the strings and played it for an hour as a six string with weird spacing (~160 pounds). Then I put a light gauge twelve string set back on (250 pounds). None of those required a truss rod or any action adjustment. But I would not do that to a Larrivee.
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Old 10-29-2020, 03:52 PM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
D'Addarrio used to have a nice comprehensive string tension chart on their web site, but it became hard to find with the last web site revamp. I have seriously explored tension for altered tunings, and for doing things like converting a regular scale guitar into a pseudo-baritone, using heavy strings tuned down to C-c. I even built a spreadsheet to capture several scenarios that were under consideration.

The typical modern twelve string guitar is braced for ~250 pounds total tension tuned E-e using a 47-10 light gauge set. As long as you keep the overall tension value in that range and don't over-stress any given string, there likely is not a big problem. Side story: a couple of years ago I ordered a custom carbon fiber Emerald X20-12. It came wearing medium gauge strings at 54-12 and was tuned up to standard pitch or E-e. That was a real handful to play! Total tension of that set was 336 pounds. I took off half of the strings and played it for an hour as a six string with weird spacing (~160 pounds). Then I put a light gauge twelve string set back on (250 pounds). None of those required a truss rod or any action adjustment. But I would not do that to a Larrivee.
Yeah, no way! Ok, so I found this

https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_gui..._from_size.htm

Calculated everything out, and if I did what I laid out in the OP, I’d end up with 283.8 lbs tension, at least with daddario strings. Not sure how close elixirs would be. If I leave the a string alone (just go up on the e and d strings) I’d be at 272.3 in standard tuning. I might substitute a .009 for one of the high e’s (I’m experimenting tuning one of the e strings up to g anyway), which would save me an additional 3 lbs. So 269.3. How strict is the 250lb limit?
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Old 10-29-2020, 08:43 PM
donlyn donlyn is offline
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Jimi2,

Quote:
"Not sure how close elixirs would be."

Elixir's website lists all their strings by type and shows what the individual tension is for each string and also by total set. It is probably for 'standard' tuning at 25.5" scale length. Or at least something close to that.

Elixir Guitar String Tension Charts:

https://www.elixirstrings.com/suppor...-tuning-guitar

Just click on whatever type you want to see, for example:
Acoustic Phosphor Bronze with NANOWEB® Coating,
and it will show different gauges with that type of string.

Don
.
__________________
*The Heard:
85 Gibson J-200 sitka/rosewood Jumbo
99 Taylor 355 sitka/sapele 12 string Jmbo
06 Alvarez AJ60S englmn/mpl lam med Jmbo
14 Taylor 818e sitka/rosewood Grand Orchestra
05 Taylor 512ce L10 all mahogany Grand Concert
09 Taylor all walnut Jmbo
16 Taylor 412e-R sitka/rw GC
16 Taylor 458e-R s/rw 12 string GO
21 Epiphone IBG J-200 sitka/maple Jmbo
22 Guild F-1512 s/rw 12 string Jmbo
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  #7  
Old 10-29-2020, 10:27 PM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donlyn View Post
Jimi2,




Elixir's website lists all their strings by type and shows what the individual tension is for each string and also by total set. It is probably for 'standard' tuning at 25.5" scale length. Or at least something close to that.

Elixir Guitar String Tension Charts:

https://www.elixirstrings.com/suppor...-tuning-guitar

Just click on whatever type you want to see, for example:
Acoustic Phosphor Bronze with NANOWEB® Coating,
and it will show different gauges with that type of string.

Don
.
Ok cool. That doesn’t show the gauges I’d use at the tunings I’d want- just their standard sets at standard pitches- but should serve as a point of comparison with the daddario figures.
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  #8  
Old 10-30-2020, 09:39 AM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
D'Addarrio used to have a nice comprehensive string tension chart on their web site, but it became hard to find with the last web site revamp. I have seriously explored tension for altered tunings, and for doing things like converting a regular scale guitar into a pseudo-baritone, using heavy strings tuned down to C-c. I even built a spreadsheet to capture several scenarios that were under consideration.

The typical modern twelve string guitar is braced for ~250 pounds total tension tuned E-e using a 47-10 light gauge set. As long as you keep the overall tension value in that range and don't over-stress any given string, there likely is not a big problem. Side story: a couple of years ago I ordered a custom carbon fiber Emerald X20-12. It came wearing medium gauge strings at 54-12 and was tuned up to standard pitch or E-e. That was a real handful to play! Total tension of that set was 336 pounds. I took off half of the strings and played it for an hour as a six string with weird spacing (~160 pounds). Then I put a light gauge twelve string set back on (250 pounds). None of those required a truss rod or any action adjustment. But I would not do that to a Larrivee.
I’ve been searching online, but can’t find an answer to how much extra tension a 12 string can handle. If I came in around 270, do you think that would be safe? I suppose I could always tune down when I’m done playing to relieve some tension; just wouldn’t want to forget, leave it in standard, and do damage.
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