Builders - How did you know....

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

That's why you charge 10 times what it cost you to build plus labor.

That isn't realistic for most beginning luthiers: few buyers will spend that much on an unknown novice luthier's guitars. An unknown novice luthier is fortunate if he or she can get between $2k and $3k for a guitar - many can't get that much. Even fewer would spend $2k on a guitar who's total material costs were $200, ignoring labor costs. Try pricing a good set of tuning machines, for example.

As with any art or craft, there is the balancing act of being able to produce an object at a cost that people are willing to pay for that object. That includes doing it efficiently enough that at that selling price one can make a target hourly wage after the cost of materials.

It is usually part of the learning process to have at least some failures that one "eats". That can be failure of a completed instrument, or failure of specific components that get scraped and re-made.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Ganes

Guess I will get some plans from LMI

The plans don't tell you HOW to make it, only what the finished target should be. Where many beginning makers run into difficulty is in trying to mix 'n' match methods and techniques for making an instrument. They take too many different sources - books, videos, etc. - and then try to piece together a how-to. A more successful approach is to chose one proven source and follow it carefully. Doing so largely guarantees at least adequate tonal and structural results.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by Ganes

Thanks for all the input from everyone, I appreciate your time to respond.
woodbox, your contribution is helpful.

When I can, I wanted to build a OM size guitar, but struggling to find decent plans. I literally went online last night with the intent on ordering plans from Georgia Luthier Supply....but they seem to be gone Guess I will get some plans from LMI

http://www.grellier.fr/en/downloads

[printer2]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

That isn't realistic for most beginning luthiers: few buyers will spend that much on an unknown novice luthier's guitars. An unknown novice luthier is fortunate if he or she can get between $2k and $3k for a guitar - many can't get that much. Even fewer would spend $2k on a guitar who's total material costs were $200, ignoring labor costs. Try pricing a good set of tuning machines, for example.

As with any art or craft, there is the balancing act of being able to produce an object at a cost that people are willing to pay for that object. That includes doing it efficiently enough that at that selling price one can make a target hourly wage after the cost of materials.

It is usually part of the learning process to have at least some failures that one "eats". That can be failure of a completed instrument, or failure of specific components that get scraped and re-made.

A guy at work wanted to know if he could get an old neck to use fingering it at work at lunch while one of the other guys gives him a mini lesson, $30 tops. I did not have anything, in a moment of weakness decided to let him have an early guitar of mine and I'll build myself a better version. He was thrilled. He ended up swapping out the tuners, they were a $10 China set, and he goes on telling me I really should put better tuners on my guitars. Buddy, you got a guitar for $25.

Someone nearby was trying to sell a Brazilian guitar that looked nice enough and nobody wanted to bite for $1000. 'But I can get a nice Taylor for that price.' Talked to a banjo maker here that sold worldwide who does not even put up his instruments for the local market, not worth his time. Also does not help one maker is now putting on guitar making workshops. So it is only a labor of love for now.

[Silly Moustache]

Back in, I guess, the '70s a well known guitar builder and friend built a twelve string for me.
He was a struggling luthier who really needed some money and I was relatively flush at the time.
After he had strung it up and I took it home to start playing it in - the neck moved ...dramatically.

I took it back for him to check out and left it for him.
after a week or so I drove over and as I parkeket, I saw the neck hannig in his window.

I went in and asked ...is that ...my ....neck?

He looked really troubled and handed me an envelope - it had all the money that I'd paid him (in installments). He was desperately apologetic and seemed ashamed.

I didn't want to take back the money as I knew he was virtually starving to establish himself (actually he always looked half starved) but he insisted and I saw that it was a matter of integrity.

Back then, I guess fixing a neck joint for a 12 string was a matter of faith, and it didn't work.

I commissioned another guitar - a BRW SJ200, a while later and made sure that he got the money back, with a healthy down payment.
We don't see each other much now due to geography, but I think we are still friends.

When I ordered a custom version of a Huss & Dalton in 2008, they made many errors on it neither the dealer nor I got no back up service or even discussion.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by printer2

Buddy, you got a guitar for $25.

The race to the bottom: an expectation of increasingly cheaper prices with the simultaneous expectation of ever-increasing quality. Up to a point it is possible to achieve that. Beyond that point, they are contradictory achievements.

Great strides have occurred in guitar making in the last few decades in achieving lower prices and higher quality. Easier to manufacture designs, cheaper materials, economies of scale (aka mass production), automation and CNC machinery, new, faster finishes, to name a few. Labor costs, however, are still one of the biggest contributors to price. That has been dealt with by many manufacturers by manufacturing wherever the lowest hourly wage can be found. (Hint: that isn't the U.S. or Canada.) That isn't unique to the guitar industry. A novice guitar maker in a higher-wage location is going to have a difficult time competing, just as those do in many other market sectors.

[Ganes]

Thanks all for the discussion.
Charles, I know the plans don't tell me how to make the instrument and I agree finding one method is important. Luckily for me, I have a full time job. My plan is to do a few hobby builds and see if if I even liked making instruments, and if I do the go from there. If not, I can always make furniture..or even kindling...lol

Printer2....thanks!....I found those last night and downloaded them before I made it back here.

I don't need to "make it" as a builder as I have a retirement plan, but it would be fun to become proficient at building guitars that a few people liked and were willing to pay for. If not, I'll just give them to my son and/or grandchildren.

Thank you all again.

[Simon Fay]

It is pretty easy to identify a guitar that is failing structurally. Any major shortcomings will be evident immediately after stringing up the guitar for the 1st time or the subsequent few weeks. By the time you've built a couple of instruments, you should be well aware of proper neck and body geometry to identify whether your instruments are structurally sound. As others have said, sticking to a plan will ensure you end up with a quality built instrument.

That said, most novice luthiers tend to overbuild if anything. Additionally, there are often a lot of cosmetic and poor joinery with beginner builds. Skilled woodworkers can often build their 1st or 2nd guitar at an extremely high level.

[J Patrick]

...I have built two short scale OM’s using LMI kits....I call them short scale OM’s because I used LMI’s OM plans but altered my kit with a 24.9 scale slotted fretboard....it’s really a 14 fret 000...both are mahogany one Sitka...one Carpathian....I was a fairly high end finish carpenter in in my mid 50’s with a killer shop when I built them...about a year apart....

...the first one is a trusty guitar ten years on....I built it a bit more shallow than standard depth....2 reasons...extra playing comfort and pickup friendliness....success on both fronts....

....tone wise it was a bit disappointing initially....granted I have been playing really nice guitars since I was a kid so i have a high standard....it was not crappy but a bit constricted sounding...not much velocity....quiet......I built it very lightly and it’s a hair under 4 lbs....it sounds really good now...it rings and sounds exactly like an older quality 000 should....

...fit and finish on my 1st guitar are not exquisite or pristine....I learned early on that the smallest defects in high end carpentry....gaps of any thickness really...can be glaring defects when you’re building guitars...so I resigned myself early on and developed my repair abilities....not a joke...for me to finish my first guitar I had to learn some fit and fill techniques...how to compensate for overworking something...(it’s always better when you do things once)....other stufff...

...then there’s finishing...I have many years of experience spraying woodwork with hvlp systems...lots of ways to finish an instrument...I didn’t worry it much...sand/fill/sand/fill/sand/sand/sand....good enough and then a sparse nitrose finish and a quick buff....it’s held up and has a nice dark vintage patina on it now...

....any how I built that one and then I built another one and was able to take it up a notch....even got a nice sunburst on it....I figured at the time I needed to build about 3 more before I could sell one and feel good about it...sadly I left my beautiful shop about 7 years ago and I am unable to build any more at this time...but I still have my tools jigs and a few guitars worth of nice wood waiting...I’ll get back to it...

.....each process is an exciting phase and a new way in which to be humbled...but it’s an itch you can’t scratch without jumping in...props to all that give it a go

[Ganes]

Thanks Simon and JP, .....here is a bit of my backstory....
I had intended to build a new wood shop about 5 years ago, had everything planned out, equipment list, even the wife had given approval. Once into my en devour I quickly discovered/realized it would be cost prohibitive (at that time) to get power to my shop. I put all of this on the back burner for the last 5 years. End of last year we have decided to either move or invest a significant amount of money into our current location. This has me in kind of a "holding pattern until spring for my new shop.
My background is not finish carpentry, but architecture for the 29 years, then moved over to the construction management in healthcare for the past 5 years.
I'm under no illusion my first attempts will be a learning experience, which I am fine with. I'm not in a race to become successful, I'm in for the education and satisfaction of building an instrument with my own two hands. Why guitars? why not? my youngest son is a professional musician as a guitarist, just finished his Phd last fall. At least I have a guinea pig...lol

Thanks for sharing your stories/experiences....I appreciate your time to respond.