Thoughts on new Fishman SA330x

[Chriscom]

I don't have any hands-on SA330x experience, but wanted to updated my comment from earlier this year about feedback on the Bose. Indeed I was able to get the Bose L1 Compact to generate feedback fairly easily, but since then I recently rehearsed with it in an only slightly larger enclosed space--a friend's living room--with guitar, keyboards and two vocals all going into the Compact and had zero problems. And I've been able to practice at home without feedback issues, so I don't know what was going on previously.

That being said I've read plenty of positive things about the SA330x, I expect you'll love it.

[Per Burström]

Originally Posted by Guitaurman

I use a SA330 by itself, no sub, for solo gigs often. I try to get it to one side, usually the left, and slightly behind me. I usually use my Shure Beta 58 mic. At times I'll use an old A.T.M. 41a, or a Shure SM58. I don't use or need a separate monitor. I run one of several guitars and the vocals through a TC Helicon Play Acpustic. I don't have vocal feedback problems ever. Occasionally I'll get a bit of low frequency feedback from a guitar, but that is easily dialed out with the notch filter or phase reversal button.

Thanks for your input Guitaurman!
I do recognize the convenience in placing the SA330X behind you to make it double as a monitor. However, I feel that I really want to be able to use a condenser microphone as I like what it makes to my voice compared to a dynamic mic, and based on my tests at home this means I have to put the SA330X in front of me.

The mic I have is a RØDE M3 with cardoid pattern, but I might get a super-cardoid RØDE M2 or S1 instead.

So I'm looking for a good monitor. I have had a look at 5" alternatives like the Behringer B205D, but I have also considered getting a Laney AH4x4 or similar. Any thoughts on this or other good monitor options? I would probably use the monitor out from the Perform-VG instead of from the SA330X.

[El Conquistador]

Try positioning the SA right next to you so that the barrel of the mic is slightly behind the grill on the SA. Works for me.

Steve

[Per Burström]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

Try positioning the SA right next to you so that the barrel of the mic is slightly behind the grill on the SA. Works for me.

Steve

Thanks Steve!
I have tested this, and it gives me far too much feedback with the M3 condenser mic, but maybe it would work with a super cardoid condenser like the M2 or S1. But when testing the setup out, I do it in a pretty small room at home, so I do of course get quite a lot of wall reflections that might contribute to the feedback?!?

/Per

Update: Just placed an order for a Behringer B205D, will keep you updated with my impressions.

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by slewis

So many people just seem to want to make the SA220 something more than it is.

Truth. These units sound great in some situations, but they aren't scalable, and with no mid sweeps,... the EQ section isn't as flexible as I'd like it to be.

A buddy of mine has one, and usually sounds good. I went to see him play in a noisy bar with a lot of chatter. Tough room to EQ, and he sounded muddy. Wasn't cutting through and didn't have enough EQ to fix it.

I had just come for a gig, so I brought my mixer in from my car on his set break and we fixed it with the mid sweeps. He ordered the same mixer the next day. He also liked that he could put the mixer within reach for adjustments.

He could've done just as well or better with a modular, scalable PA. These all in one systems can sound great, but they're very limited. I think they appeal to people who don't know a ton about mixing, and want things to be as simple as possible.

The problem is, that when you run into a bad sounding room, your hands are tied. If you need more power or more headroom, you have nowhere to go.

One small format mixer (Allen & Heath Zed 10FX or Soundcraft EFX8) and even one decent powered speaker, (QSC K10, Yamaha DXR 10, Line 6 L2T, Line 6 L3T, etc) can do the same job and you can add more speakers if you need to expand.

I mean, I get that these systems are convenient, but a powered speaker and mixer isn't that much more work at all.

Again, they do sound good, but you will eventually run into its limitations.

[El Conquistador]

This is me in an absolute sonic nightmare room. Copper ceiling, hardwood floors, and every surface is reflective. And, as you can see, PACKED with people trying to converse.

No question that, left to itself, the SA just goes muddy.

Solution, RedEye preamp. As the room fills up, I increase the the "High EQ" knob and it cuts right through. At the night this picture was taken, I asked the people right in front of me if I was too loud. "No you're fine". Then I asked the people on the opposite wall if they could hear me. "Yeah, you sound great".

Extraordinarily small footprint, well distributed sound (not just louder), excellent tone, and, best of all, KISS. I'm not sure what else one could want.

Steve

P.S. I have yet to encounter a situation either indoors or out that my SA was not equal to.

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

This is me in an absolute sonic nightmare room. Copper ceiling, hardwood floors, and every surface is reflective. And, as you can see, PACKED with people trying to converse.

No question that, left to itself, the SA just goes muddy.

Solution, RedEye preamp. As the room fills up, I increase the the "High EQ" knob and it cuts right through. At the night this picture was taken, I asked the people right in front of me if I was too loud. "No you're fine". Then I asked the people on the opposite wall if they could hear me. "Yeah, you sound great".

Extraordinarily small footprint, well distributed sound (not just louder), excellent tone, and, best of all, KISS. I'm not sure what else one could want.

Steve

P.S. I have yet to encounter a situation either indoors or out that my SA was not equal to.

Everybody always says that you sound great as long as you’re not too loud.

I was just at a Sunday brunch in a NIGHTMARE room, that my buddy was playing. It’s a cavern. Tons of problem frequencies. Thank God I had ear plugs.

Guess what, I heard a few people tell him it sounded great on break, and it was beyond bad. He even knew it from the stage.

[Turp]

Originally Posted by The Kid!

...These all in one systems can sound great, but they're very limited. I think they appeal to people who don't know a ton about mixing, and want things to be as simple as possible.

The problem is, that when you run into a bad sounding room, your hands are tied. If you need more power or more headroom, you have nowhere to go.

I mean, I get that these systems are convenient, but a powered speaker and mixer isn't that much more work at all.

Again, they do sound good, but you will eventually run into its limitations.

I agree and disagree. They can sound good and do have limitations, but not everyone who uses them does so because they "don't know a ton about mixing". They may just be able to work with "things as simple as possible" and within the limitations to get the sound they need in a venue. With any system, I've found it is a must to have some type of preamp/EQ in the signal chain from a stand alone unit or mixer. And, sometimes, one speaker (array), or otherwise, is just not going to get it done.

[dgt178]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

This is me in an absolute sonic nightmare room. Copper ceiling, hardwood floors, and every surface is reflective. And, as you can see, PACKED with people trying to converse.

No question that, left to itself, the SA just goes muddy.

Solution, RedEye preamp. As the room fills up, I increase the the "High EQ" knob and it cuts right through. At the night this picture was taken, I asked the people right in front of me if I was too loud. "No you're fine". Then I asked the people on the opposite wall if they could hear me. "Yeah, you sound great".

Extraordinarily small footprint, well distributed sound (not just louder), excellent tone, and, best of all, KISS. I'm not sure what else one could want.

Steve

P.S. I have yet to encounter a situation either indoors or out that my SA was not equal to.

....it seems odd to me that you're so low to the floor in comparison to the "bar-stool-height" of the customers......I would at least be at their eye level.....just my 2 cents......

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by Turp

I agree and disagree. They can sound good and do have limitations, but not everyone who uses them does so because they "don't know a ton about mixing". They may just be able to work with "things as simple as possible" and within the limitations to get the sound they need in a venue. With any system, I've found it is a must to have some type of preamp/EQ in the signal chain from a stand alone unit or mixer. And, sometimes, one speaker (array), or otherwise, is just not going to get it done.

Sorry about the sweeping generalization. The simplistic controls on these are appealing because it’s hard to mess things up, but it’s almost impossible to EQ out problem frequencies in some rooms. If you’re using a mixer or pre to combat these issues, then you’re just as well off using a powered pa speaker, IMO.

[Guitaurman]

I've been using an SA 330 for about a year now and an SA 220 for while before that. I also have a traditional P.A. While my larger, more powerful P,A. has more flexibility with mid sweeps, and a stereo graphic equalizer, I use my SA 330 most of the time. I gig a lot, often an afternoon show and another in the evening. The portability of the Fishman is a life saver. The ease of set up and the integrated mixer is great! It has 3 band EQ for both channels, phase reversal, which can suppress feedback, and sweepable anti feedback notch filter for each channel.

I have never had an issue that I couldn't handle with the Fishman's controls. I could bring a mixer with sweepable mids, and plug it into the Fishman. I actually have done that but not for feedback problems just for more inputs.

My goal is to provide a decent sound for my playing and singing. Great sound is a never ending quest, and to achieve perfection is impossible! I guess it's always a matter of "good enough." If I can get a decent sound from an easy to carry and set up rig, I'm going to use it. My job is to play primarily and be a sound man secondarily.

I get compliments on my sound with the Fishman. Could I sound better? Of course, but I'm not going to haul a truck load of equipment to sound negligibly better. The SA 330 has been all I need for 90% of my gigs. I only use my big P.A. for larger venues.

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

This is me in an absolute sonic nightmare room. Copper ceiling, hardwood floors, and every surface is reflective. And, as you can see, PACKED with people trying to converse.

No question that, left to itself, the SA just goes muddy.

Solution, RedEye preamp. As the room fills up, I increase the the "High EQ" knob and it cuts right through. At the night this picture was taken, I asked the people right in front of me if I was too loud. "No you're fine". Then I asked the people on the opposite wall if they could hear me. "Yeah, you sound great".

Extraordinarily small footprint, well distributed sound (not just louder), excellent tone, and, best of all, KISS. I'm not sure what else one could want.

Steve

P.S. I have yet to encounter a situation either indoors or out that my SA was not equal to.

Every time I see this picture, I think of the only gig I've ever done. I was only background music which is what this pic looks like to me. (I don't mean that in a bad way, this is only one glimpse in time so I could be wrong.) When I asked folks how the sound was, they all said "It sounds great!" It didn't sound great and I knew it. They simply didn't care or were happy that I wasn't too loud so they could continue their conversations.

That certainly doesn't mean that you didn't sound great and you have far more experience than I. I'm just sharing that in my experience, it wasn't that I sounded good, it was that I wasn't annoying. It was 'Good Enough.'

[MikeTX]

My musical compadre calls this "Musical Wallpaper" :-}

These gigs can be super fun, plus.. SOMEBODY is ALWAYS listening!

"Every time I see this picture, I think of the only gig I've ever done. I was only background music..."

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by Guitaurman

I get compliments on my sound with the Fishman.

This isn't directed at you, when is the last time you heard anyone tell someone else anything other than, "Sounds great, man!" I say it too. Even when somebody sounds reckless. I try to be polite regardless.

Do you get other cats in town coming up to you asking about everything in your signal chain and start buying the same stuff that you're using? That would really tell you something.

Honestly, it's not solely about the gear. Knowing how to gain stage, EQ, mix, proper speaker placement, and more is all paramount.

Originally Posted by Guitaurman

My goal is to provide a decent sound for my playing and singing. Great sound is a never ending quest, and to achieve perfection is impossible! I guess it's always a matter of "good enough." If I can get a decent sound from an easy to carry and set up rig, I'm going to use it. My job is to play primarily and be a sound man secondarily.

Not to be argumentative, but decent sound is not my goal, nor is perfection. Ever evolving and increasingly better are my goals.

Personally, I get great results or better with a small format mixer with mid sweeps, a sub, active crossover, one or two tops, and a monitor. However, for my simple rig, the mixer and a powered speaker do better than decent.

Like I said before, the SA 220/330's are a nice piece of gear, but to me, their too limited to chance having less EQ than I want or need. So much ( almost everything ) happens in the mid frequencies on an acoustic gig, that a fixed mid is a deal breaker. If they included mid sweeps, I'd consider one.

Originally Posted by Guitaurman

I have never had an issue that I couldn't handle with the Fishman's controls. I could bring a mixer with sweepable mids, and plug it into the Fishman. I actually have done that but not for feedback problems just for more inputs.

You've been lucky so far!

No doubt that they can sound great in a myriad of situations. I'm just saying that if you run into problems without mid sweeps, you could change your tune fast. I've had it happen and seen it happen on more than one occasion.

I put my Line 6 L3T up against my friend's SA 330 and he bought an L3T about a month later. For the comparison, I used the integrated mixer.

I could use the mixer while gigging my it has mid sweeps. However, I make adjustments as the amount of people in the room changes, and I hate to be tethered to the PA, or get up to make an adjustment.

Just personal preference. For those reasons and more, I prefer traditional modular PA equipment. I wish I could find something that had one piece that worked for me. I haven't yet.

All that said, if you sound good enough to get hired back, and you're happy with your sound, then that's all that matters.

The difference for me was years ago playing through a killer house system with a great engineer that took the time to dial me in. He became a friend and I ended up shadowing him for a while to learn how to twist knobs, which led to me mixing for him from time to time.

Although I occasionally go out with a 10" powered 2-way, I really don't ever want a full range signal going through just one box. Again, that's me and I'm kind of a lunatic when it comes to sound reinforcement.

[The Kid!]

Here’s my small system. No sub. Sets up in 7 minutes

https://imgur.com/gallery/ObbqF3w

On the floor:

https://imgur.com/a/5iUa7rz

Up top:

Upgraded mixer to the EFX8. Better pres, EQ, and FX

https://imgur.com/gallery/AxehsVO