Got to play V-Class 814ceDLX vs Same non-V

[vindibona1]

I had a rare opportunity today. My local GC just happened to have TWO Taylor 814ceDLX's hanging right next to each other. I couldn't imagine them having two of the same guitar in this price range in the same store. But as I approached I could see the label inside of one was different. It was in fact a V-Class... and the one hanging next to it was the older non-V model, but the same moniker: 814ceDLX. You know I had to do a side-by-side.

I gotta tell ya, from a sonic standpoint they are not the same guitar. Sure, they look the same from the outside, but I was surprised at how very different they sounded.

The V-Class model was very, very bright. I mean, put your sunglasses on bright. Yes, it had decent low end. And the resultant harmonics were abundant. Maybe too abundant. It had excellent sustain and I will confess that whatever they did seemed to compensate for some equal temperament things that guitars tend to suffer from. And maybe when the strings are on for some time it will settle down.

The older non-V-class model was excellent in its own right. This particular one was an excellent specimen. I know because I own this particular model. It sounded particularly warmer and more balanced than the V-Class. It had good projection and while I could hear the intonation differences between the two guitar, the V-Class winning in that category, I felt that the older model had a more mature and sophisticated sound.

The brightness of the V-class was so overpowering (to me) that I had to see if it sounded like any other Taylor guitars. I picked up a 114ce that was sitting right there and gosh darnit, both of these models had similar high ends. Obviously the 814 had more bass response and was fuller with obviously more sophisticated harmonics, but I was surprised by the similarities. So I tried the 214ce that was also there, but the V-class was more similar to the 114.

My guess is that the my perceived brightness issue on the new V-Class 814ce can be tamed with heavier strings on positions 1 and 2 or a different set of strings altogether. I'm not so sure if the Elixirs that came on it are the best match for this guitar. And I've always said that it's easier to tame a lion than teach a pussy cat to roar. I think that with the right strings and perhaps different bridge pins the sound could be make this a real winner. The sustain on it goes on forever and it does produce a ton of harmonics because they have wrangled with the intonation. I can definitely hear the difference in the intonation of the harmonics! If I had to choose between the two 814's I'm not sure which way I would go. I do know that if I chose the V-class model I'd be doing some string testing but I'm sure I could get it to work for me. Will I sell my 814ceDLX to move on to the new model? I won't be doing that. If I sold my 814 it would be to move to an Olson or Goodall or one of those. As good as I think the new V-class 814ceDLX might be, I think there are still better guitars yet to "move up" to. I think comparing the two the V-Class I'd describe as different, not better.

JMO- YMMV

[cotten]

I appreciate your impressions - would love to try that kind of A/B comparison for myself! Because I can't just now, I read and re-read your comments a couple of times.

cotten

[pjroberts]

I have not played a V brace yet, but I’ve had a number of Taylors and my favorite is the now last generation but still only a few years old original Powers brace - 2014 version. The videos I’ve listened to (seems like a dozen + now) sounded almost like an exaggertation of the Taylor sound, quite a bit brighter than my 2015, which is super warm with the Taylor sparkle tuned in just right, and a serious thumping bass. I want to try to V, but OTOH I think I’m good on the Taylor front for a long time (do want to try a 12 string and a smaller hog though). I a bit surprised Taylor went a brighter route because the last generation at least around here had such big fans (including me). Maybe the brighter flavor plays into their younger enthusiast fans.

[IndyHD28]

I’m a Martin guy being sorely tempted by the new Builders Edition K14ce. Still waiting to play it. Do Taylors “open up” like Martins do? If yes, then what do you think that will do for the brightness of this 800 series V class?

[rokdog49]

If an 814 V-braced sounds like a 114, then I'll save me some money and buy the 114.
Seriously, I owned a 114 and my grandson has one now. I liked the voicing but the lack of bass wasn't my cup of tea. My friend Lee has an 814 which has a significant amount of bottom. I don't think I would spend the kind of money it would take to own a new one with the new bracing. I would rather have his.
I'm pretty sure his isn't going anywhere...ever.

[ntotoro]

So the lesson learned is a 114 sounds almost the same as a new 814...

[Shades of Blue]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

My guess is that the my perceived brightness issue on the new V-Class 814ce can be tamed with heavier strings on positions 1 and 2 or a different set of strings altogether. I'm not so sure if the Elixirs that came on it are the best match for this guitar. And I've always said that it's easier to tame a lion than teach a pussy cat to roar. I think that with the right strings and perhaps different bridge pins the sound could be make this a real winner.
JMO- YMMV

Could be the individual guitar you tried, but I can't stand the thought of having to mod or result to hoping that different strings would "tame" a $3000+ guitar. Just seems like something that expensive should grab you and be great no matter what strings are on it. Leaves a lot to chance.

I used Elixirs on my previous 814ce and I never really was in love with the sound. It wasn't until I tried some John Pearse strings on that guitar that I really started to dig the sound. However, by that time I had mentally moved on from that guitar and started my new love affair with the Martin sound.

[leew3]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

If an 814 V-braced sounds like a 114, then I'll save me some money and buy the 114.
Seriously, I owned a 114 and my grandson has one now. I liked the voicing but the lack of bass wasn't my cup of tea. My friend Lee has an 814 which has a significant amount of bottom. I don't think I would spend the kind of money it would take to own a new one with the new bracing. I would rather have his.
I'm pretty sure his isn't going anywhere...ever.

Yep! ^^^^^

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by IndyHD28

I’m a Martin guy being sorely tempted by the new Builders Edition K14ce. Still waiting to play it. Do Taylors “open up” like Martins do? If yes, then what do you think that will do for the brightness of this 800 series V class?

The first V-Class I played was the Builders Edition K14ce several weeks ago at CME. It was nice, but I wan't knocked out. I don't have specific impressions on that one beyond what I just said because I didn't really have much to compare it to. At the same session I tried the new Martin D35 vs a 1979 D35 (I own a '72 so it was famililar) and IMO it wasn't even close. The '79 to me was better in every aspect.

Originally Posted by rokdog49

If an 814 V-braced sounds like a 114, then I'll save me some money and buy the 114.
Seriously, I owned a 114 and my grandson has one now. I liked the voicing but the lack of bass wasn't my cup of tea. My friend Lee has an 814 which has a significant amount of bottom. I don't think I would spend the kind of money it would take to own a new one with the new bracing. I would rather have his.
I'm pretty sure his isn't going anywhere...ever.

I have a 814ceDLX that was mfd in June of last year. I got it because while I loved the 814ce because of the huge bottom end, some units can be a bit muddy sounding. So I elected to get the DLX model because I felt it would be more articulate with the Adi bracing and was offered a tremendous deal on it. I think it will take some time for it to come into its own sound, but it's pretty nice. I haven't been able to get it side by side with any other of the same model to see how mine stacks up. But as you know I've done some string testing and pin testing and am now dealing with nuances of sound.

Originally Posted by Shades of Blue

Could be the individual guitar you tried, but I can't stand the thought of having to mod or result to hoping that different strings would "tame" a $3000+ guitar. Just seems like something that expensive should grab you and be great no matter what strings are on it. Leaves a lot to chance.

I used Elixirs on my previous 814ce and I never really was in love with the sound. It wasn't until I tried some John Pearse strings on that guitar that I really started to dig the sound. However, by that time I had mentally moved on from that guitar and started my new love affair with the Martin sound.

I see what you're saying and I partially agree. [Edit] Every guitar regardless of price or model has its own unique sonic properties. While we may be in love with a particular guitar with the factory provided strings, sometimes we have to look past that and recognize the potential of the instrument which could be siginficantly altered with strings that best match the harmonic properties of he instrument. (BTW... Which exact set of the JP strings did you use? I'm a bit confused by how they number their sets. I'd like to try a set on my 814).

As an example of testing, modification and strings, I took my 2011 614ce from it's existence as a pretty nice guitar to one that has a sound that is to die for. It took a lot and went full circle and now is back on Elixir strings (which I am not a particular fan of btw) and sounding glorious. But it took a lot... 200 hours of Tonerite (made a HUGE difference) and then finding the right set of (mixed) bridge pins that dialed in each string (yeah extreme, I know) but OMG... As you may recall, 6 months ago I had this guitar up for sale. I doubt that I'll ever sell it and probably would be more likely to sell the 814 first! And BTW... 6 months ago I would have preferred the "revoiced" 614ce... Not any more! Not even close (JMO).


But let's drill down to what the V-Class bracing (and bracing) really does... Bracking design and position allows (or blocks) the (wood of the) guitar's natural harmonics to be in line with the fundamentals and (separately) harmonics of the strings. If you really listen deeply to the classic Martin sound and then the classic Taylor sound, you'll hear that some of the natural harmonics coming out of the wood on the Martin are ever so slightly out of tune to the fundamentals and string harmonics, particularly on the D28 model. If you compare the D28, for example, to the HD28, the D35, the D41 and 45 you'll hear the difference is largely in the harmonics and resultant harmonics. I'm willing to bet that Martin finally figured it out with their new "reimagined" models. And now you're starting to hear a different Martin sound with better matched harmonics due to forward shifted bracing that they finally embraced fully. Taylor began to better match the guitar's harmonics with the strings in their designs. Then the difference from model to model was in the wood and other considerations as you move up the line. Now, the V-Class bracing seems to allow more freedom of the wood to better vibrate in concert and in tune with the fundamentals and harmonics and add another level of resultant harmonics... which adds richness... but also adds brightness because of that extra layer of resultant harmonics that their bracing allows. I thought that the brightness might be too much of a good thing.

I did make a few iPhone reference recordings but am hesitant to post them because they don't truly represent what I heard live. As I listened to my recordings last night I thought better of just throwing it out there. I may post snippets at a later date when I can edit it down (I don't have any decent video editing software and am not a good video editor). I'm contemplating ordering a mic for my iPhone and going back to do a comparison while they still have the two in stock.

[Montesdad]

Thank you for your review and comments -

Haven't been in a guitar shop for quite some time so the new Taylors and their sound are still a bit of a mystery -
Being an old Taylor guy, hope to be able to A / B for myself sometime soon.

[beninma]

So the 1 hour + video that got posted here a day or two ago where Tony Polecastro interviewed Andy Powers had a really interesting section where Andy mentioned:

- All the current V-class guitars are "modern voiced" and bright.
- V-class guitars can be voiced different ways
- They can make a V-class guitar with a more traditional voice
- They probably will do so

It's going to be super interesting when they do make some more variants. It could result in some killer guitars.

I would be curious why they made them all "modern voiced", perhaps they know who would be most likely to buy these expensive guitars right away vs the typical player on forums like this one who are not universally in favor of modern/bright voicing. It could just be for simplicity, easier to focus on getting one voicing right to start and sales figures indicated the modern voicing was the most important one to start with.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by beninma

So the 1 hour + video that got posted here a day or two ago where Tony Polecastro interviewed Andy Powers had a really interesting section where Andy mentioned:

- All the current V-class guitars are "modern voiced" and bright.
- V-class guitars can be voiced different ways
- They can make a V-class guitar with a more traditional voice
- They probably will do so

It's going to be super interesting when they do make some more variants. It could result in some killer guitars.

I would be curious why they made them all "modern voiced", perhaps they know who would be most likely to buy these expensive guitars right away vs the typical player on forums like this one who are not universally in favor of modern/bright voicing. It could just be for simplicity, easier to focus on getting one voicing right to start and sales figures indicated the modern voicing was the most important one to start with.

My take on the whole thing...
Taylor makes some great guitars. I ought to know, I own two of them. But in our quest for our instruments we need to at least tacitly acknowledge that Taylor is a marketing juggernaut. We have to decide for ourselves whether any changes in their product line benefit the way we play and if decide if the monetized value is worth it. We must remember that their first, foremost and(really) only goal is to sell NEW Taylor guitars and the best way to do that is through obsolescence of existing models, making older used models seem less desirable, even if the new versions aren't better or improved.

Modern voicing? I thought that's what Taylor already did :0 . In fact, I believe that they shifted the whole sound paradigm to the extent that they sucked Martin right in behind. But will taking that sound further be an improvement? Hard to say. The public collectively experiences psycho-sensory adaptation so maybe. But it could go the other way. As they say..."When you over-do a special effect, it's no longer special".

[Shades of Blue]

I'll be honest and say that if Taylor is now making their guitars "more bright," I can't see how I'd ever want to own another new Taylor.

EDIT: I mean this in the best possible way. I'm not trying to make a dig here, just saying that the Taylor brightness/thinness is what drove me away from that tone. Which is funny, because I felt that the 814 has the most bass of any guitar I've ever played. In fact, the dynamic range was really wide. Too much of a good thing?

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by Shades of Blue

I'll be honest and say that if Taylor is now making their guitars "more bright," I can't see how I'd ever want to own another new Taylor.

I know you said “if” but I’m not sure how anyone can say they’re “more bright”. The only Taylors I’ve ever liked were the rejoiced Taylors and the bass was thunderous. The knock on Taylors for me from the time they were first introduced was their stringy brightness, so unlike the guitars I grew up on.

My impression is that the V-bracing continues that foray into Martin-land and is quite the opposite from “more bright”.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by IndyHD28

...Do Taylors “open up” like Martins do? If yes, then what do you think that will do for the brightness of this 800 series V class?

The so-called opening up process is a natural quality of wood and not a function of guitar brand.

I would never buy a guitar whose tone didn’t fully satisfy me in hopes that its sound would improve sufficiently over time.

I buy guitars on the basis of how they sound at the time of purchase. If I like the sound, it might improve a bit over time but never worsen. If the sound doesn’t fully satisfy me, I’m confident that it will not improve over time to a degree that will compensate for what I find wanting.