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  #76  
Old 06-29-2020, 01:46 PM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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Casual;

I'm sort of fascinated by your suggested approach.

I've considered the Manzer Wedge but wondered if that would compensate for what I consider the big problem--sound board stiffness. Journey offers the wedge in its CF classical guitar but I need to hear more from people who have played it.

I like the suggested volume measurements. The 7 & 10 electrics and my 10 and 20 acoustics have given me a pretty good range of the volume I can handle. The Manzer Wedge may displace volume in a way that enhances projection, but then I'm back to wondering if the Manzer can compensate for soundboard stiffness.

I would be interested in Alistair's take on the Manzer.

Hi Evan.

Since the Manzer design works well with very thin pieces of tonewoods glued to make a monocoque I doubt that it would be a problem using the much much more rigid carbon cloth reinforced epoxy materials.


If you think about it from a simplified and abstract perspective: Emerald guitars already deliver a mini Manzer effect though the deep upper rib bevels.

The simplified idea based on Emerald standard designs is to imagine X10, X20 and X30 models that are Manzered with sufficient thinness under the picking arm and quite wide at the thigh to achieve the soundbox air volume target. (Dunno of the thin side needs to be as thin as your X10 electric).



Each adventure to Emerald takes a loooog time for a regular semi-custom guitar and the extra steps needed for an Evan radical version takes a loooooooooong time.

So it's worth setting a good target and objectives for each adventure.



The 'experiment' part of my suggestion is to do tactile evaluations at the Evan hacienda to narrow the possibilities to a size and shape and air volume target to guide the maestro to a layout that is Evan specific.


My description above was focused on bulking up a playable guitar which would allow dynamic evaluations.


À super simple alternative would be start the experiment with a series of body shapes carved from layered styrene house insulation.


À more realistic simple model to evaluate the combination of body and neck would be to experiment using a classical guitar neck or electric guitar bolt-on neck (very inexpensive from Internet suppliers).

Since the neck needs to be anchored you might as well evaluate with strings by attaching the neck and bridge to 18" of fir 2x4. Use this core and slabs of foam insulation to build a series of prototype.


Given the typical time lag between the order and the building of the modified mold you could start with the minimum amount of experimentation needed to establish initial parameters (ie based on X10 or X20 or X30).

Then while waiting for the date Emerald starts to make the mold you could tinker to establish final specs.


What is the Ramirez soundbox air volume?

I wonder why all the full size classical guitars I've played seem to have approx the same body dimensions and I wasn't able to find any with a bigger body? Is there a sweet spot to get good tone or do complexities of the classical style train the hands to expect a specific layout?


BTW: If I were curious enough to do this experiment I'd likely add a step where I'd Manzer one or two inexpensive wood guitars replacing the back(s) with thin model builder's plywood ( I'm thinking about a Cort jumbo). If done carefully it would still be suitable to donate to a needy teen.


Radical is us. Haha.


.

Last edited by casualmusic; 06-29-2020 at 01:58 PM.
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  #77  
Old 06-29-2020, 02:05 PM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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I’m not sure what makes a wedge a ‘Manzer wedge’ - but I was watching the ‘in stock’ video this morning, and Mr. Hay pointed out that the Synergy Harp Guitar actually does have a wedge as a standard feature. So, it’s been done before

Check this out at around the 12:30 mark:


There's lots to discover at Alistair's restaurant!

.
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  #78  
Old 06-29-2020, 03:00 PM
esimms86 esimms86 is offline
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If you check out today’s (June 29th) Emerald video showcasing guitars in stock and fast forward to around 12:45 you will catch Alistair pointing out the wedge design on a Synergy harp guitar.
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  #79  
Old 06-29-2020, 03:42 PM
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If you check out today’s (June 29th) Emerald video showcasing guitars in stock and fast forward to around 12:45 you will catch Alistair pointing out the wedge design on a Synergy harp guitar.
Check the post immediately above yours
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  #80  
Old 06-29-2020, 04:00 PM
esimms86 esimms86 is offline
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Check the post immediately above yours
Whoops! Thanks eatswodo! As Roseanne Rosanna Danna would say, “never mind!”
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  #81  
Old 06-30-2020, 06:43 AM
new2guitar_eh new2guitar_eh is offline
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Whoops! Thanks eatswodo! As Roseanne Rosanna Danna would say, “never mind!”
That was a blast from the past that made me smile!
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  #82  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:29 AM
mountainmaster mountainmaster is offline
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Casual;

I'm sort of fascinated by your suggested approach.

I've considered the Manzer Wedge but wondered if that would compensate for what I consider the big problem--sound board stiffness. Journey offers the wedge in its CF classical guitar but I need to hear more from people who have played it.

I like the suggested volume measurements. The 7 & 10 electrics and my 10 and 20 acoustics have given me a pretty good range of the volume I can handle. The Manzer Wedge may displace volume in a way that enhances projection, but then I'm back to wondering if the Manzer can compensate for soundboard stiffness.

I would be interested in Alistair's take on the Manzer.
It seems we share a similar quest. I too am looking for a carbon fiber nylon string guitar with a projection that matches a good nylon string wood guitar.
The Blackbird Rider Nylon you mentioned would have been my first choice as well but those are no longer in production. By the way, I think I could have overcome the odd shape by using a strap.

Anyway, I got myself an X7 Nylon and while it is a fine instrument, it indeed lacks projection. For a long time I blamed it on its unusual bridge position (you can find my "rants" about it elsewhere in this forum), but Alistair explained that the bridge is at the optimal spot for an X7 of my chosen scale length.

So I guess you are right, it must be down to soundboard stiffness.
I think in general one could say that the thinner the soundboard, the better its projection. Considering the strength of carbon fiber and its imperviousness to weather conditions, I wonder how thin a cf soundboard can actually get before it starts causing problems.

I did ask Emerald sales about this some time ago but they replied: "We already lighten the top for the Nylon models, I don't think it would be wise making it any lighter."
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  #83  
Old 06-30-2020, 03:12 PM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Mountainmaster;

It is my understanding that Emerald has a modified top for nylon string guitars. And I presume that Emerald has taken it to its best possible level.

I've tried nylon strings on a number of steel string CF guitars and that really doesn't work. The Emerald nylons are far superior, but not, as my rant goes, to the level of a good classical guitar.

The Manzer Wedge presents a possibility that is new to me. I am not willing to spend the money on a custom Manzered Emerald, but I am tempted by the new Journey CF nylon string guitar.

My Journey temptation is tempered by several reservations. The one review I've heard seemed to have a great base presence, but the treble sounds tinny--that could be a matter of strings or recorder, but I'm unsure. I am also not needing or wanting a guitar that folds up--I suspect that a fixed neck will be in the future and that would be more my preference.

I'm still temped, if nothing else to just try a Journey to see if the projection goes beyond its size. Maybe I'll inquire into a B model, or maybe I'll just stew on the matter.
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  #84  
Old 06-30-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post

The Manzer Wedge presents a possibility that is new to me. I am not willing to spend the money on a custom Manzered Emerald, but I am tempted by the new Journey CF nylon string guitar.
Bear in mind that Ms. Manzer herself claims no sonic advantage for the Wedge - it was originally conceived to improve visibility of the 42(!) strings on the Pikasso guitar she built for Pat Metheny.

Subsequently, the comfort benefits were also noted, and that seems to be the primary selling point these days.

Full story here:

https://manzer.com/features/the-wedge/
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  #85  
Old 07-01-2020, 01:54 AM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post


The Manzer Wedge presents a possibility that is new to me. I am not willing to spend the money on a custom Manzered Emerald, but I am tempted by the new Journey CF nylon string guitar.

My Journey temptation is tempered by several reservations. The one review I've heard seemed to have a great base presence, but the treble sounds tinny--that could be a matter of strings or recorder, but I'm unsure. I am also not needing or wanting a guitar that folds up--I suspect that a fixed neck will be in the future and that would be more my preference.

I'm still temped, if nothing else to just try a Journey to see if the projection goes beyond its size. Maybe I'll inquire into a B model, or maybe I'll just stew on the matter.

.

The Journey OF660 would be fun to try and not really expensive.


But I think it's 18" x 12.5" x 4" sound box is too small to put out the projection needed to play acoustically outdoors with other instruments.

I reckon you'll need approx 14 litres of body cavity air space to match the Ramirez.


The saying "there's no replacement for displacement" seems to apply to increasing guitar projection the way it does to getting more torque from car engines.


Just for fun, I'll take a few minutes to re-scale one of my guitar tracings to the OF660 specs and calculate it's approx air volume.


I play outdoors every summer with bluegrassers.

My 7 litre CA Cargo went only once, and other players nicely asked me to play louder. Embarassing.

The 14 litre steel string Concert Pro flat picked at 7/8 intensity does really well and is easy to hear when leading or doing a break.

For months I tried to convince myself that the somewhere smaller 2018+ X7 (fell in love with its compact travel size) would be sufficient until I got realistic and said no.

I took the newly arrived 18 litre Rainsong H-DR/T to outdoor Bluegrass on Monday and it was effortlessly loud when needed.


I if I shared your objectives I'd test drive the comfort aspect of the Manzer Wedge on a mocked up bigger body size by padding up the X10 electric .

And perhaps modifying a nice sounding low cost (under $500) full size classical guitar (Yamaha, Cordoba etc) to a) see if a Manzered standard size body is as comfortable to play as the X10 thin body, and b) determine which Emerald guitar size would be a good starting point for a custom build.


The guitar maker's method to add a Manzer Wedge to a new guitar or retrofit a guitar is straightforward:
- For a new build the sides would be made 1-2 inches wider to allow for the cut
- Lay the guitar on its back on a hard surface
- The side to be thinner stays in contact with the surface
- The side that will become thicker will be propped up the appropriate amount with little blocks of wood
- From videos the difference in thickness in the sides of a Manzer Wedge appears to be 1" or a bit more. You may need more slope to meet your target for comfort.
- Lay a pencil on a different block of wood (or in a hole drilled into the block) and use it to trace a reference line around the body
- From the reference line draw a parallel cut line around the body starting from the edge that lay on the surface
- Use a cutting tool (ie Dremel) to cut around the body
- Add/modify the back purfling to support a new back
- Use the modified body as a template to make a new back piece from luthiers laminated panel or thin model makers plywood
- Attach the new back. If you plan to repeat the experiment with steeper cut consider using duct tape.
- Test drive the modified guitar.

Easy peasey.


Could the owner of an OF660 or guitar with a Manzer Wedge please respond with the differece between the thinner side and the wider side?


C'mon Evan. Satisfy your curiosity and fascination. You know you want to. What else is exciting chez vous these days? Haha.


Cheers.


.

Last edited by casualmusic; 07-01-2020 at 03:13 AM.
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  #86  
Old 07-01-2020, 09:17 AM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Casual;

I've made a number of guitars and often modified guitars along the lines you mention--but never tried a Manzer. And I have too many irons in the fire at the moment to spend time in the wood shop.

I suspect that the volume notion is not only widely held, it may be true. Although, traditional classical guitars do seem to hold steady at a relative small size. And violins seem to project well beyond any volume limitations. And, to add to my counfoundment, the X7 electric is surprisingly loud for such a thin body. And forum members were surprised at the projection of the x10 thin bodied nylon string electric played during the shipment video.

In looking at and listening to the Journey I suppose I'm looking for something magic. Socrates said that there is no such thing as magic, only ignorance; I got a plateful of that.
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  #87  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:10 AM
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steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Casual;

I've made a number of guitars and often modified guitars along the lines you mention--but never tried a Manzer. And I have too many irons in the fire at the moment to spend time in the wood shop.

I suspect that the volume notion is not only widely held, it may be true. Although, traditional classical guitars do seem to hold steady at a relative small size. And violins seem to project well beyond any volume limitations. And, to add to my counfoundment, the X7 electric is surprisingly loud for such a thin body. And forum members were surprised at the projection of the x10 thin bodied nylon string electric played during the shipment video.

In looking at and listening to the Journey I suppose I'm looking for something magic. Socrates said that there is no such thing as magic, only ignorance; I got a plateful of that.
The OF660 is a great guitar and is currently the only one I own. There are 2 complaints I have though;

-the volume output
-the weight of the guitar overall

Perhaps these two complaints come at the heels of having been spoiled with a RainSong that excelled in both of those areas. I miss the loudness and the seemingly weightless aspect of the Shorty. Having said that, the Journey excels in every other aspect over the RainSong. It has better ergonomics (which is in part due to the Manzer Wedge), it has better functionality (CF and a supreme traveler with the breakdown neck).

I've said all that to say this; If there is one thing I'm quickly learning about guitars over the years, there is simply no such thing as a perfect guitar. I buy them, sell them, and keep what inspires me. Evan, I don't think the Manzer will be the answer to your searching. Yes, it is a cool design as it does help a smaller bodied instrument retain a low end response, and is more comfortable ergonomically. However, I find that the ergonomic feature is more of a lagniappe to comfort while sitting than while standing. Again, a cool design- but is it perfect?

If steel strings fail to drive the top of the OF660 I can't imagine nylon strings doing a better job on the OC660 (assuming all other design aspects are the same). I watched the shipping video of your thin-body X10 and was shocked at the volume of it unplugged when Kevin was playing it, and was actually looking for a cable and amp! Not even joking!! It is a fabulous instrument in my opinion and reminds me that smaller doesn't mean weakened projection. I'm thinking violins, mandolins and ukuleles now

At any rate- enjoy the search and play music along the way.
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  #88  
Old 07-03-2020, 11:19 AM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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Evan, sorry it didn't work out for you. All I can really say is keep searching and you will find it eventually.
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  #89  
Old Today, 06:11 PM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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GuitarLuva;

I've about decided to sell all my Emeralds; the 10 acoustic electric, the 10 electric, and the 7 electric. They are all special instruments, but not what I've been looking for--a CF guitar that projects like a good wooden classical guitar.

I thought about going to a good Ramirez, Cordoba, Yamaha, Takamine, and so forth, but the search has been for a CF and as I've tried all the available CF nylon string guitars, there is only one left untried--the Journey. I( don't have high hopes for the Journey, but it will be different, and it will be good enough for my play. Something to play while awaiting future developments.
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