1980 Gibson H'Bird Neck Reset - need ideas for this one

[nacluth]

Ok, I know this is not a job anyone should have taken, but Steve and I kind of stumbled into it being nice guys and all. A client brought in a 1980 Gibson Hummingbird with a broken adjustable bridge. The guitar is in near mint condition having been stored in a closet for 20+ years never played. How the bridge fell apart, no one really knows. Asks us to put a new Brazilian bridge on it. We do, but I check the neck angle before I do and surmise a little high action, but not too bad. Wrong, under neck tension the neck pulls up immensely with the FB even pulling of the top a little at the neck joint. 1/4"+ action. We feel terrible and tell the guy that while the bridge looks great - the action makes it unplayable (except by slide). Needs a reset, guy says no problem and hands over a bunch of hundred dollar bills to cover the job even though we say he can pay when done. No rush.

As a Martin repair center we have done our fair share of neck resets, even on Gibsons. However, while prepping for this job (after getting paid and saying we would do a great job) I find this:



If you can tell, there is a tenon made up of the three piece maple neck shaft that comes through the neck block. This almost assuredly covers the dovetail pocket and is glued down to the neck block itself. This makes removal by the standard steam job very unlikely. Let me remind you that in the customer's mind, the guitar visually looks near mint. The finish is perfect and the binding is clean. It's going to make major surgery hard to do well. I'm looking for risk/reward scenarios that get us out of this job with the best chance of good success - andI could use your help. I would like to say, "Help us Frank Ford. You're our only hope." But, I figure some of you may have decent thoughts too.

Anyone seen this before with a successful conclusion?

OK, here's our likely scenarios (hope you can follow):

#1.) Score lacquer around the heel. Carefully peel back the plastic binding from the end of the FB to past the neck joint. Remove 14th fret and saw off extension; then remove by heat exposing the top of the maple tenon. In the area of the dovetail joint, rout out a pocket down to the said joint severing the tenon. Steam and remove neck. (Potentially just mechanically clear most of the glue) Scab on wood to the neck dovetail and make a new full height dovetail. Repeat the process on the body to make a new full height pocket. Fit neck. Glue back in. Glue on extension - binding - frets. Voila.
-lots of careful steps and a great job for the money

#2.) Basically the same as #1, but quicker. Saw right through the binding. Same steps until the neck is off. Set the neck with the tiny dovetail left. Glue a mortise patch to replace the old one. Put back together.
-less steps but potentially easier. Not visually the greatest but saves time

#3.) Saw the neck joint up to the fretboard. Screw a strap button with a long screw through the neck into the neck block lowering neck angle. (saw a video on FRETS doing this with an oscillating bone saw - probably out of my comfort zone) Might be willing to do this with a zero set Japanese saw or something.
-fast and potentially easy - also potentially very dangerous

#4.) Admit defeat and give back the money.
-least desirable ending

Any help would be great. Thanks Gibson for a terrible neck joint idea.

[D. Churchland]

I concur that that is an awful neck design.

I am no expert but I had this thought. If direct heat via steam is out of the question then indirect heat might work.

Perhaps you could take a Ziploc freezer bag and fill it with boiling water. Put the bag on the inside of the guitar and have it rest on the neck block with the guitar in a padded vise with the neck pointing towards the floor. Fill the bag enough that the water will cover the whole block. If it works the bag should "mold" around the block inside the guitar. Leave the bag for 5 minutes and monitor the finish. After 5 minutes refill the bag and put it back on the block. Repeat a few times and try to separate the block with a bent offset pallet knife.

You would definitely have to make sure the bags you get can handle that kind of heat, I think the freezer bags can handle up to 250 degrees but I could be wrong

Perhaps if the hot bag technique works and weakens the glue joint on the "block extension" enough that you could break the bond then you could use steam for the neck joint in the traditional way to weaken the glue on a two pronged front, putting pressure on the neck block would be a bit trickier since you can't "push" it out, maybe just a pulling motion with the hand would be sufficient.

That's my only thought, as for the rest of it I'll let others chime in.

[Howard Klepper]

The photo is a blur, but I can't see why you think that block under the top is part of the neck.

[mirwa]

I would concur with howard, even with a really blurry picture, that actually looks like someone has inserted a piece of wood behind the neck block to try and stiffen the area up

I have done quite a few neck resets on gibsons, and that would be the first one ever, with a tongue extension on the neck that I have seen

Steve

[Frank Ford]

Originally Posted by mirwa

I would concur with howard, even with a really blurry picture, that actually looks like someone has inserted a piece of wood behind the neck block to try and stiffen the area up

I have done quite a few neck resets on gibsons, and that would be the first one ever, with a tongue extension on the neck that I have seen

Steve

With any luck you won't see another.

But, it IS part of the neck and it IS original.

And, of course, it IS nasty.

They do come apart with steam, but they will always remain nasty. . .

[mirwa]

Thanks frank,

What a shame, the workmanship looks so bad, even with the photo being blurry.

Steve

[B. Howard]

I would come at it like an archtop. Pull the heel cap and drill a small hole at an angle into the joint headspace. Hopefully there is headspace..... And inject steam. Lot's of steam..... I would also consider pulling some frets like 16 and 17 and drill down to the joint where the tenon crosses the block and put steam in there too, preferably at the same time as the heel. The SM neck removal jig could be very helpful of jobs like this to put some pressure on the joint while steaming to encourage it to move.

It's gonna be a mess no matter what and you will likely looses a few things you didn't want to before it comes apart. Good luck.

[nacluth]

Yeah sorry for the blurry photo. I probably should have taken more time documenting the guitar inside and out. I took it as an afterthought as I was leaving work to use for myself for some research, and then late last night decided to ask for help. Phones - they're great but not panaceas.

We took a lot of time establishing that the neck was a three piece maple (hard to see under all that dark cherry finish that Gibson uses). Our hope was that best case scenario that the maple "extension" was a separate block not part of the neck shaft - like Howard suggested. Even though in the 20+ years of repair work our East Texas shop has never seen this construction, we have heard about this white whale of ugliness from others (including Frank himself) through the years. When we finally looked inside, we were pretty certain what we we're dealing with.

The #1 scenario presented for a fix is basically a rehashing of a conversation (from many years ago) with John Calkin (now of Huss and Dalton) and his laborious fix of the problem. While functional, I was hoping for an easier solution.

Thanks Frank for taking the time to comment. Remembering you mentioning this somewhere from many years ago, I was hoping for your input. We will try to steam it out.

I hadn't planned on documenting this fix - but I just might if it could help someone in the future.

Thanks for everyone for their input. I'll see if I can get a clearer resolution photo to give you a better understanding in case you have the misfortune to get one of these jobs - and against better judgment not turn it down.

[John Arnold]

My choice is #1, but remove the entire fingerboard, rather than cutting it.

Prior to removing the fingerboard, I drill two holes to accept 1/2" long brads. The brads will relocate the fingerboard accurately, and are pulled out after the glue sets.

Removing the whole fingerboard is my SOP when dealing with screwy neck joints, particularly on mandolins. On several occasions I have drilled to the bottom of the joint with a long 1/16" bit.

[Frank Ford]

I just drill and steam in the normal way to remove the neck with fingerboard intact. Setting the angle goes more or less normally, but I do need to make a cut between the fingerboard and that disgusting tongue of the neck so that it won't jack things up when I reglue the whole mess back in place.

Gotta love it when middle management gets in gear! What kind of thinking do you suppose went into creating that neck joint? Couldn't have been any repairers in the room at the time, I'd say.

[mirwa]

There is also another way, which I use on epoxied necks,

I leave the neck fitted, remove the fretboard, put a sacrificial fretboard back on, level that board, so the neck angle is corrected and then refit the original fretboard

Steve

[John Arnold]

put a sacrificial fretboard back on

That is fine, as long as you don't mind the thicker neck.

[mirwa]

You are correct john,

I do find however, that once the sacrificial board is levelled until the height is flush at the nut, that when you put the old fretboard back on and level it out to be refretted, the only marginally thicker sections start down the 9th onwards

Steve

[Frank Ford]

Indeed, a fingerboard "wedge" is a standard kind of solution to the neck angle problem on a classical with Spanish heel construction, or other guitars made with non removable necks.

Fortunately, there's no need for that heroic kind of work on a dovetail neck like this one, which is removable for resetting.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

Fortunately, there's no need for that heroic kind of work on a dovetail neck like this one, which is removable for resetting.

Love this line!!! ;-) Heroic!!