Bigrock Engineering Power Pins on a Taylor T5z

[jonfields45]

There is a fairly heated thread recently quieted down in the General Acoustic Guitar Discussion about Power Pins. Largely negative, though most of those opinions are not based on experience with the product. I checked Amazon (BTW cheaper if you buy direct) and You Tube and found the reviews quite positive. As a life long contrarian, engineer, and no lover of bridge pins, I decided to buy a set.

A T5z strung with 10-46 Nickel plated steel strings is likely an easy winner for the worst sounding acoustic guitar priced over $1000 and your mileage may vary... But I do think it improved the acoustic tone. It is louder and less tinny. Maybe there is more efficient coupling of the string to the guitar???

Here is my photo documentation and some additional thoughts...





Compared to an ebony bridge blank, the power pins are about 1/3 the weight, and maybe less than half the weight of a real ebony belly bridge. However, if mass at the fulcrum of an acoustic guitar was really that important, I imagine the ebony belly bridge could be replaced by something just as stiff for half the weight.



Now that said, I did not want to load up on washers if the bolt was too long and a standard 6-32 bolt cutter will do the trick (it was not needed on my Taylor).













The 6 bolts should contribute positively to the long term stability of the bridge.



The T5z benefits from grounded strings in some situations and you can see the resistance between strings (had I held the probes on the strings it would have read zero) is essentially shorted. I was not sure if the black finish would be a good conductor, but it is just fine.





The low E string ball is not seated perfectly due to a bend in the loop from being previously mounted with a bridge pin.

Strings are mounted through the side on the Power Pin and you must use the part of the string above the ball loop. You then pull it forward into place which keeps it nicely seated as you deal with the tuner. For mounting fresh strings this is much easier and something I could do at a poorly lit gig with no tools. One small down side is removing strings and remounting, for example to sand down a saddle, in which case you need to loosen the strings considerably more to get the full ball loop out of the back of the Power Pin (an extra 1/2" of slack compared to just getting the string loose and pulling a bridge pin).

Jon

[martingitdave]

Do you have any objective comparisons of sound, perhaps in the form if recordings? Well done post, BTW.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Do you have any objective comparisons of sound, perhaps in the form if recordings?

I found a demo on You Tube that does such a good job of recording before and after I was not too motivated. And the T5z had a really tinny acoustic voice (not so bad now). And I really did not expect an improvement... I was only looking for good enough tone and easier string changes.

Jon

[Rodger Knox]

What are the units on the scale? 10 grams?
I know 33.7 grams is about right for an ebony bridge blank, so the power pins are 9.04 grams. That's about the same as ebony bridge pins, so most of the negative comments about additional weight are not justified.

Are the black pieces plastic? I would have guessed that the power pins would have been much heavier.

edit: From post below, scale is set to ounces. That makes the power pins about three times heavier than ebony pins, so the negative comments about additional weight ARE justified.

[stanron]

It seems to me that this thread could very well be spam by proxy. The old thread has died down so let's start another one.

I've never got it with power pins. String installation may be as easy as using standard pins but uninstalling has to be a real pain, unless you are over economic with your tuning machine windings. You must have to straighten out each string before pulling the whole thing through the power pin unlike just pulling up the standard pin and the string is out.

So remind me how much they cost?

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by stanron

It seems to me that this thread could very well be spam by proxy. The old thread has died down so let's start another one.

The OP was a contributor to that thread. I can understand why he wants to separate his well-stated observations from the banter there.

Originally Posted by stanron

I've never got it with power pins. String installation may be as easy as using standard pins but uninstalling has to be a real pain, unless you are over economic with your tuning machine windings. You must have to straighten out each string before pulling the whole thing through the power pin unlike just pulling up the standard pin and the string is out.

The OP clearly states that "Strings are mounted through the side on the Power Pin", a fact easily verified in about 3 seconds by visiting the manufacturer's website.

I offer no opinion pro or con for Power Pins, but having an understanding of the basic facts does a lot to help your argument either way.

[stanron]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

The OP clearly states that "Strings are mounted through the side on the Power Pin", a fact easily verified in about 3 seconds by visiting the manufacturer's website.

Ho ho. You got me there. I visited the web site when I first came across the item in a thread like this on another forum but didn't remember that bit of information. It doesn't change the fact that I think the product is unnecessary, solves a problem that doesn't exist and gets raised in forums like this in a way that suggests to me vicarious advertising. I wouldn't object if the original poster contributed to the site. Does the vendor?

Ordinary pins work fine. Power Pins are a wheel re-invented.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

What are the units on the scale? 10 grams?
I know 33.7 grams is about right for an ebony bridge blank, so the power pins are 9.04 grams. That's about the same as ebony bridge pins, so most of the negative comments about additional weight are not justified.

Are the black pieces plastic? I would have guessed that the power pins would have been much heavier.

The scale was set to ounces. The Power Pins themselves are metal. If I were to venture a guess, black chrome plating on brass, for the black ones.

Jon

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by stanron

It seems to me that this thread could very well be spam by proxy. The old thread has died down so let's start another one.

I've never got it with power pins. String installation may be as easy as using standard pins but uninstalling has to be a real pain, unless you are over economic with your tuning machine windings. You must have to straighten out each string before pulling the whole thing through the power pin unlike just pulling up the standard pin and the string is out.

So remind me how much they cost?

I'm a regular poster on the AGF and I imagine you've read something I've posted in the past. I think at $50 they are a worthy reversible experiment. At the moment they are cheaper direct than through Amazon. The quality of the machining is first rate.

As a kid I was an electric guitarist. Working for a living I carried various downsized acoustic guitars around the world. As a retiree I've slowly morphed from a Martin Dreadnought player (D45V), through various carbon fiber guitars, to my current T5z. I am hardly a paragon of convention...

Jon

[Ned Milburn]

I don't think your experience with the guitar you have tried the power pins on can suggest any bearing as to their sonic effect on a standard type of acoustic guitar. The guitar you pictured is what I would term a pseudo acoustic guitar. 'Nuff said.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

I don't think your experience with the guitar you have tried the power pins on can suggest any bearing as to their sonic effect on a standard type of acoustic guitar. The guitar you pictured is what I would term a pseudo acoustic guitar. 'Nuff said.

Agreed. It would be interesting if someone else gave them a try on a traditional acoustic. Jon

[John Arnold]

I know 33.7 grams is about right for an ebony bridge blank, so the power pins are 9.04 grams. That's about the same as ebony bridge pins, so most of the negative comments about additional weight are not justified.

A finished ebony belly bridge weighs about 26 grams. Depending on the actual dimensions, an ebony bridge blank can be 3 or 4 times that amount.
Ebony pins weigh about 5 grams.
0.904 ounces is about 26 grams.
An 8-32 socket head cap screw that is 5/8" long weighs about 2 grams, so the six screws alone weigh about 12 grams.
IMHO, almost doubling the weight of the bridge will make a considerable difference in the sound.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

A finished ebony belly bridge weighs about 26 grams. Depending on the actual dimensions, an ebony bridge blank can be 3 or 4 times that amount.
Ebony pins weigh about 5 grams.
0.904 ounces is about 26 grams.
An 8-32 socket head cap screw that is 5/8" long weighs about 2 grams, so the six screws alone weigh about 12 grams.
IMHO, almost doubling the weight of the bridge will make a considerable difference in the sound.

Agreed. It made a difference. Just not what I was expecting (from the You Tube review I was expecting it to make the T5z even tinnier).

This is just a simple reversible modification in the same price range as a custom saddle where you could reasonably expect the strongest opinions from those who've tried it.

It would be really interesting if one of the heavy weights of Build and Repair (Frank Ford, Ned Milburn, or Brian Howard, to name a few) gave them a try on a couple of real acoustic guitars.

For me I was looking for neutral tone impact and easier no tool string changes at gigs. I was very skeptical about tone or volume impact, but was pleasantly surprised.

Jon

[Ben-Had]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

IMHO, almost doubling the weight of the bridge will make a considerable difference in the sound.

I agree. The question is - will that be a positive or negative difference? From what I've heard -negative.

[redir]

I'm not sure what measuring the weight of a bridge blank has to do with anything here. For ease of use I guess it would be fine to install them in a guitar as the one pictured since it has no real acoustic properties anyway.

I think they look awful as well.

But really it's not that hard to just change the strings on a pinned bridge.