The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 09-10-2019, 03:21 PM
funkapus funkapus is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 284
Default Fretting span between middle and ring fingertips.

In a couple of tunes I'm working on right now, I have to fret a series of melody notes descending the first string while holding a note on the 2nd string. The biggest impediment I'm finging is that the tips of my middle and ring fingers really really want to be right next to each other. If I hold out my hand, palm up with my fingers straight, the separation between my middle and ring fingertips is easily an inch and a half, maybe more. But if I curl my middle and ring fingers towards my wrist, my middle and ring fingertips converge to a degree that my index and middle fingers do not. When I'm fretting strings, sometimes they seem barely a paper-thickness apart. This is so frustrating.

I've imagined that, like a lot of other things have become possible with repeated practice, maybe if I keep at the tunes where this is hobbling me, eventually I'll be able to stretch my fingers apart more. But that's what I've been doing, and if there's any progress at all, it seems so slow. I keep wondering if there's anything else I can do. Curling my fingers like I'm fretting adjacent frets and then wedging something between my fingers to forcibly spread them out just a little farther seems like a recipe for a minor hand injury. But I can't help but wonder if there's some powerful exercise that the Pumping Nylon folks know or something that will be more effective at addressing this one specific limitation.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions.
__________________
I need more time to play music.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:57 AM
Bain Bain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Uk
Posts: 237
Default

I,m with you on this one this is my biggest frustration no matter how much I try I can’t do it , I do t know the answer except find a different fingering , that I have tried , and as yet I have had no joy except more angry man moments that releases the tension in my head....😡
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:43 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Fingers will naturally become more flexible the more you play, and while there are physical limits to how far fingers can stretch apart, everything (aside from bones!) is flexible. Hands can be trained.

If I hold my hand out, fingers straight, and spread them, I can get my middle and ring fingertips 3 inches apart (and if I push them they'll go further). (I've been playing for pover 50 years, mind, so that helps!)
But of course as I close my fingers into my palm the tips come together - that's just how hands are made! On guitar, if I have my fingers parallel to the frets, the middle and ring can easily play neighbouring frets, even low on the neck, but not 2 frets apart. Unless....

There are two ways for getting maximum stretch, but it depends on what you're playing.

Tip 1 (general stretch tip): Don't start from the index. I.e, it's instinctive when first fretting a note to have the thumb opposite the index finger - for example when barring a chord we tend to pinch between index and thumb. If stretching up the neck, however, this reduces your span - your pinky won't stretch very far. If you're not having to barre the neck, try placing the pinky first, and then stretch the index back. I.e., support the pinky (and/or ring) and let the index take care of itself. IOW, the ideal thumb position is in the middle of all four strings, index and pinky stretching away from a central point. Thumb on back of neck, of course, not wrapped over the top. (Wrapping the thumb, or holding the neck in your palm, will severely limit your reach.)

Tip 2: For more stretch up one string between any pair of fingers, use a hand position more like a violin or cello player. (Thumb position less critical here.) Don't try to keep the fingers parallel with the frets (as with most chord or scale playing across the neck), but make them almost parallel with the strings, pointing away from the nut towards the bridge. I can easily get a 2 fret gap between middle and ring if I do that - even between frets 1 and 3.

Naturally there will be pieces of music where neither technique is going to help you much. But if the piece is written for guitar, then it has to be possible for normal human hands to negotiate (average adult hands on a full size instrument).

Can you give us a link to the pieces you're struggling with? Tab or audio, with the exact place that's difficult? There may well be easier alternatives.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:52 AM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

JonPR's no 2 is the one I'd advise. Imagine one of your fingers is totally straight and the other is curled as much as possible. The difference between the tips will be measured in inches. Of course the hand angle to the neck has to change, but only for as long as this passage lasts. All it takes is a twist of the wrist.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-11-2019, 04:32 AM
JonnyBGood JonnyBGood is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Plymouth, 51st state of America
Posts: 348
Default

Well I could offer exercises designed to help develop fret hand independence (and as you mention Pumping Nylon, the spider is a classic) but I agree with the points JonPR has made and especially the bit about what you are trying to play and how.

In my experience the solution to playing tricky things in the fretting hand is rarely about the gym mentality of stretching and exercises and nearly always about how it is fingered, and that may not be what seems obvious at first. I studied classical guitar for many years and a huge amount of time was devoted to studying how things are fingered and finding elegant solutions that are efficient and easy on the hand that best serve the music. In contrast, very little time was spent on exercises to try and counter the physiology of the hand.

So I echo Jon's suggestion that you show us what you are having difficulty with and how you are currently fingering it.
__________________
Jon

"The way nature seems to work is that it sends a messenger...the acoustic guitar needed to go in another direction, Michael Hedges became that messenger"
Tommy Emmanuel
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:49 AM
jaymarsch jaymarsch is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North of the Golden Gate, South of the Redwoods, East of the Pacific and West of the Sierras
Posts: 10,571
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Fingers will naturally become more flexible the more you play, and while there are physical limits to how far fingers can stretch apart, everything (aside from bones!) is flexible. Hands can be trained.

If I hold my hand out, fingers straight, and spread them, I can get my middle and ring fingertips 3 inches apart (and if I push them they'll go further). (I've been playing for pover 50 years, mind, so that helps!)
But of course as I close my fingers into my palm the tips come together - that's just how hands are made! On guitar, if I have my fingers parallel to the frets, the middle and ring can easily play neighbouring frets, even low on the neck, but not 2 frets apart. Unless....

There are two ways for getting maximum stretch, but it depends on what you're playing.

Tip 1 (general stretch tip): Don't start from the index. I.e, it's instinctive when first fretting a note to have the thumb opposite the index finger - for example when barring a chord we tend to pinch between index and thumb. If stretching up the neck, however, this reduces your span - your pinky won't stretch very far. If you're not having to barre the neck, try placing the pinky first, and then stretch the index back. I.e., support the pinky (and/or ring) and let the index take care of itself. IOW, the ideal thumb position is in the middle of all four strings, index and pinky stretching away from a central point. Thumb on back of neck, of course, not wrapped over the top. (Wrapping the thumb, or holding the neck in your palm, will severely limit your reach.)

Tip 2: For more stretch up one string between any pair of fingers, use a hand position more like a violin or cello player. (Thumb position less critical here.) Don't try to keep the fingers parallel with the frets (as with most chord or scale playing across the neck), but make them almost parallel with the strings, pointing away from the nut towards the bridge. I can easily get a 2 fret gap between middle and ring if I do that - even between frets 1 and 3.

Naturally there will be pieces of music where neither technique is going to help you much. But if the piece is written for guitar, then it has to be possible for normal human hands to negotiate (average adult hands on a full size instrument).

Can you give us a link to the pieces you're struggling with? Tab or audio, with the exact place that's difficult? There may well be easier alternatives.
These tips are really helpful, Jon. I have found that I do have better reach and technique as I practice over time. It is a process of practice and patience.

Best,
Jayne
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:54 AM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

What are the particular sequences of frets that need to be played? Best to just work on that. Arm and hand
position and anticipation and length of notes held and fretting finger used for each note (can be more than
one way) are things to work on.

Stretching exercises will not make tendons or muscles lengthen.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-14-2019, 01:00 PM
FrankHS FrankHS is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post

If I hold my hand out, fingers straight, and spread them, I can get my middle and ring fingertips 3 inches apart
.
Aye. Live long and prosper.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-14-2019, 02:22 PM
Guest 33123
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHS View Post
Aye. Live long and prosper.
Yes do this a lot: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-14-2019, 06:49 PM
FrankHS FrankHS is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 541
Default

(Removed by author)

Last edited by FrankHS; 09-15-2019 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Perhaps misleading
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=