A few guestions for a seasoned luthier.

[ironman187]

So, after seeing some of the guitars on this forum, I have been inspired to build my own. So I had a few questions,
What is the difference in tone between Brazilian and mahogany for the back/ sides of a guitar?
How much can I expect to spend on wood for a guitar?
How does one achieve the 22' radius on the guitar top?
Does the underside of the top follow the same radius?
How do I figure out the optimal thickness of the top, sides, and back (for tone)?
How do I find the fine line between too much bracing and too little bracing?

Thanks in advance!

[Kyle Burner]

I am far from a "seasoned" luthier, but I have built a few guitars so I will give you what I know.

As far as the difference between mahogany and braz, I have not personally built with either yet so I won't comment on tonal difference. I will tell you however, that you are looking at hundreds to thousands of dollars in cost difference. Brazilian is getting harder and harder to find, especially certified brazilian with paper work. Depending on what woods you choose you can find back and sides for $60 or you can go to wood like braz where you can spend thousands if you aren't careful. For standard woods I would estimate $125 for a pretty good set of back and sides and $75-$100 for a good top.

Comparing wood for tonal characteristics is not black and white. There are so many components besides wood species that will change the guitar tone that saying a Brazilian guitar will provide glassy deep tones and a maple guitar will provide cutting mids and highs is a broad generalization.

As far as the radius 22 seems like a pretty tight radius for a guitar top, but regardless of the radius it is done through the sanding of the sides and the braces. You can make, or buy from vendors like luthier suppliers, a radiused dish. Using this dish you sand the sides after they are bent which will give the sides the correct contour. Braces are also sanded to have the desired radius on the bottom. The top is then placed in the radiused dish and the braces are glued on using a go-bar system which applies pressure to the braces. Once dried the top will have taken the radius of the braces. For the guitars my father and I build we use a 28' radius for the top and a 15' radius for the back.

Optimal thickness for all components and the amount of bracing required to make a good sounding guitar comes from experience. You could take one of the many sets of plans sold for guitars and follow them to the T, and you will probably get a fine sounding guitar. But to make a phenomenal guitar you have to understand the interaction between all parts. Understanding that interaction is what I think drives most people to keep building, to keep learning and keep making better guitars.

All I can tell you is that I have fallen in love with building guitars, and your first guitar may not be a great guitar, but that is ok. You built it with your own hands and that is something special. I recommend you find a luthier near you and have him start teaching you things, or go over to the Official Luthiers Forum and start reading the old posts. Learn all you can, and then start building and experimenting.

[SteveS]

I'm not very seasoned - I have built almost 20 guitars.

In my mind, it would be wrong to use BRW on your first. Your first might go in the dumpster. Use mahogany.
Your questions would be answered best be reading Cumpiano's book.
If you are doing this to save money, forget about it. You can spend whatever you want on your first, from free to many thousands. You could build a guitar from recycled wood. piano, desk, church pews - even pallets.
Thickness and bracing for tone depends on the tone you are trying to achieve. That knowledge comes with experience. Every guitar and every piece of would is different. There are generalities, but no one can give you an exact number or sequence of steps to follow. You have to learn that.
Doming - It depends on what you are looking for. Some build totally flat. If doming, most use a radius dish.

[rattletrap]

I've started into this path also.

I completely agree with Steve. If you are doing this to save money, you wont! In fact, be prepared to spend more than what a WIDE variety gits out there.

I've got a nice wood shop that is well equipped and there are still lots of tools or jigs that I either have to make or buy.

I also completely concur with Steve regarding the wood. Start with Mahogany or Sapele. Brazilian is hard to find, brittle, tends not to like glue and is quite expensive.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless you are an experienced woodworker, I would STRONGLY recommend that you buy a kit from LMI or one of the other luthier suppliers. This will GREATLY reduce the overall cost and is technically WAYYYY easier.

Do yourself a favor. Dont do it like I am!!! buy the kit!!! This is WAYYYY more work!

Craig

[ironman187]

So I know about the radius dish, but do you leave the underside of the top flat? I guess I'm not really understanding this part.

I know tone is mostly subjective, but I am looking for some advice on how to figure out if you have over braced it. I know seasoned luthiers can tell just by tapping on the top before and after bracing to find the right combination of thickness of the top and bracing. I also know this would be hard to explain to somebody who has never built a guitar before, let alone trying to explain it on a forum, but any help would be seriously appreciated.

I know there are kits out there, but I want to build the guitar from scratch, I'm very meticulous about the quality of work I do on everything, so I think a guitar would be a fun challenge. Building a guitar from a kit just doesn't excite me.

[rattletrap]

Originally Posted by ironman187

So I know about the radius dish, but do you leave the underside of the top flat? I guess I'm not really understanding this part.

I know tone is mostly subjective, but I am looking for some advice on how to figure out if you have over braced it. I know seasoned luthiers can tell just by tapping on the top before and after bracing to find the right combination of thickness of the top and bracing. I also know this would be hard to explain to somebody who has never built a guitar before, let alone trying to explain it on a forum, but any help would be seriously appreciated.

I know there are kits out there, but I want to build the guitar from scratch, I'm very meticulous about the quality of work I do on everything, so I think a guitar would be a fun challenge. Building a guitar from a kit just doesn't excite me.

understood on the kit.

First get the cumpiano book. its hard reading and pulling the dimensions out of it is a little challenging. As for tuning the top, that is experience that I dont have yet. I bought a video by Kent Everett. VERY informational.

As for the radius dish. If I am understanding your question correctly you are thinking the radius dish is for sanding the top to its given radius from a thick piece of wood. If I am correct in my assessment of your question, you are wrong.


Luthiers correct me if I am wrong

As I understand it, the radius dish is used to give a radius to the bracing and to shape the sides to the radius for easier application of the top. The dish is also used as a form when gluing the rounded braces to a flat top. The top is a constant thickness and the radius is generated from gluing the flat top to the rounded braces.

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by ironman187

......I also know this would be hard to explain to somebody who has never built a guitar before, let alone trying to explain it on a forum, .......

Hold it up and tap it. Listen to the tone. Carve the braces, repeat tapping and carving until it sounds "appropriately musical" to your ears and stop there. It is really good to talk to a local builder to make sure you have not removed too much. You could post pictures here, but I'd rather touch it than just see it.

[Bruce Sexauer]

The radius can be calculated, the braces cut to it, a caul that mimics the brace made, and then the braces glued on w/o a dish. I have made at least 100 instruments this way, though I use dishes (my tops currently vary between 30' and 50', which amounts to +/- 1/16" to 1/8" depth of chord in 16" length) for the most part these days.

The plates are usually flat and is "tortured" into their 3 dimensional form.

Rather than using abstract "tapping" to generate unquantifiable data, I recommend a greater combination of your senses including the feeling of "liveness" of the plate at all stages (what most of us actually use tapping for, rather than as a tuning method, though some think it is good for business to allow the lay observer to misapprehend this fact), and more than anything thinking of it in terms of its structural purpose, flexing it with this in mind. The magic is in getting it right, and it cannot be directly calculated consistently, though many have tried; the intuitive mind is the more powerful tool. This skill takes time to develop, and not all have the knack for it.

[Steve Kinnaird]

Howdy Ironman,

Don't rule out a kit entirely. What I mean is that you can get a "kit" from some place like LMI which is no more than a gathering together of all necessary parts. Nothing will be done for you if that is your desire. So you will save some time and leg work right from the start.
On the other hand, if you simply want the thrill of the hunt, by going to the luber yard, ship yard, wood store or lutherie supply house then that certainly IS a fun thing to do--and it only gets more enjoyable with time.

The plate (top and back) is thicknessed to the optimum thickness, then as it is glued to the radiused braces it takes on that radius also. It is flexible enough to conform to what the braces dictate. You can do this without a radius dish, simply by using deep throated clamps. More time involved, but I get the impression time isn't your enemy, right?

As far as what is optimum thickness, hoo boy what a question! Each piece dictates that, as well as size/shape of the guitar, string gauge planned, music aimed for, etc.

Read as much as you can before starting, from multiple sources.
Figure on a steep learning curve and be patient.

Good luck,

Steve

[ironman187]

Wow, you guys are a wealth of information. I greatly appreciate all the input. Hopefully in the near future I will be starting my first build!

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by ironman187

....in the near future I will be starting my first build!

Be careful. It is like a cancer!

[ironman187]

so I hear.

[SCGib68]

Check out these links, along with Cumpiano's book there is a wealth of information here. And as far as cost goes, if you are starting from scratch and have very few shop tools your first guitar could cost from $1k to $10k by the time you purchase materials, jigs, plans, books, power and hand tools to do an accurate job. My first has a cost of almost $5k and I have quite a few tools etc b4 I started. Granted, the next 5+ guitars will cost less and less, but budget way more than you think for your first kit or scratch!


http://www.bluescreekguitars.com/
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/index.php
http://kitguitarforum.com/
http://www.frets.com/
http://13thfret.com/
http://luthierforum.com/
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[Jpscott]

Upon hours of research I have found that useing average old lumber yard wood for guitars is totaly acceptable. Fir, cedar, even strait pine for tops, and for backs and sides, walnut, cherry, oak, maple, and wenge are good chocies. It's really up to you to be creative. Really, when your starting out you don't want master grade materials, save that for when you masters your skills. There are no rules only tradition.