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  #31  
Old 02-23-2016, 10:46 PM
repete repete is offline
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Default Yikes!

I do hope you have this job done correctly. Your previous proposals for repair sounded dreadful!

I have done this job. Its not a real hard one EXCEPT that the intonation, as built is horrible. I ended up shortening the neck about 1/8" to make it right. Another common problem is the top bellying. That also needs to be fixed to make a reliable good playing instrument.

-r
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  #32  
Old 02-23-2016, 11:59 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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I feel pretty confident I can do a good job of it. I have been a professional furniture restorer for 40 years so I am very familiar with working with wood. I'll do it like the last video I posted. Regarding the belly. Yes the Bridge was pretty tilted and it looked like it might be pregnant with twin ukuleles. The Bridge was completely tight though. I installed a Bridge Doctor and it flattened right out. I know many people disapprove of bridge doctors but it seemed to work great so far and I think it sounds even better.

So far I have:
Installed a Bridge Doctor
Replaced the tuning machines
Put in a tusq saddle
Added a curly teak veneer to the headstock because the original Soveriegn overlay was missing when I got it.

The neck reset is the most ambitious but I think I can do it.

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Last edited by johna2u; 02-24-2016 at 08:16 AM.
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  #33  
Old 02-24-2016, 08:54 AM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repete View Post
I do hope you have this job done correctly. Your previous proposals for repair sounded dreadful!

I have done this job. Its not a real hard one EXCEPT that the intonation, as built is horrible. I ended up shortening the neck about 1/8" to make it right. Another common problem is the top bellying. That also needs to be fixed to make a reliable good playing instrument.

-r
It's not a real hard job at all - if you don't care what it looks like, and if you're not that critical about neck angle and alignment. If you want it to look perfect, and if you want to be precise about your final measurements, then it will be time consuming and tricky.

I've done dozens of neck resets, and it's still a little scary for me, especially since I'm working on other peoples' valuable vintage guitars. And I have had problems and pitfalls with resets in the past, so I'm aware of what could go wrong. I'm proud to say that every reset I've done has come out looking like a perfect factory neck joint (no gaps, no finish chipping, etc.), and with ideal neck angle and saddle height. Like I mentioned before, I've had a couple that didn't go together like they did in the dry run, and I had to I steam them out and do them over again. I've also had chips and other finish complications, but I'm good at doing lacquer drop fills and touchups. This is a skill that a furniture restorer is likely to have, so you have an advantage here.

The good news for you is that if it doesn't come out perfect, then at least it's your own guitar, and it's only a Harmony.

Regarding top bellying, I'd say that it's pretty uncommon for that to be a serious issue on those old Harmonys. Regarding saddle location/intonation, I'd say just do the reset and see how it comes out. If necessary, you can fill and recut the saddle slot or build a new bridge.

As far as glue choice is concerned, the only glue types I'd recommend are hot hide glue, Titebond, or that polyvinyl glue that LMI sells. I have no experience with the latter, but I've done resets with both Titebond and hide glue. as I mentioned before, I prefer hide glue, because Titebond has more of a tendency to seize before the joint is completely closed. Hot hide glue is slick as snot, and it closes up reliably. Therefore my personal preference is hide glue. If you use Titebond, time is crucial because of its tendency to grab quickly. If you use hide glue, time is crucial because it can't cool too much before you apply clamp pressure or its strength will be compromised. Either way, rehearse your gluing operation several times before actually gluing it up.

I noticed on your list of items, you listed "paint scrapers". If you use one of these, you should taper the end pretty thin. I recommend using an artist's palette knife or a similar thin metal spatula.

On the youtube video with the Harmony reset, the guy used an xacto to mark the taper on the neck heel. I prefer to use a fine file or sanding stick to do a tapered bevel to the edge, and then I chisel as close as I dare to the edge of it, and then I'll pull strips of sandpaper through like they demonstrate in the video to achieve the final coutour. Put masking tape on the body on either side of the dovetail to protect the finish from getting scraped up by the back of the sandpaper dragging sanding particles across the surface. Beveling the edge like this will help avoid finish chips. If you sand or chisel on an un-beveled heel, it's very likely to chip.

I'm glad to hear that you've chosen to do the job properly. It doesn't make much financial sense, but I really do think of those Harmonys as "sleepers" on the vintage market. They look cool, and they sound fantastic - not like an OM or an L-00, but they have their own unique sound that's cool on blues or jazz.

Good luck, and let me know if I can help in any way.

Last edited by Hot Vibrato; 02-24-2016 at 09:04 AM.
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  #34  
Old 02-24-2016, 01:22 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato View Post
I'm glad to hear that you've chosen to do the job properly. It doesn't make much financial sense, but I really do think of those Harmonys as "sleepers" on the vintage market. They look cool, and they sound fantastic - not like an OM or an L-00, but they have their own unique sound that's cool on blues or jazz.

Good luck, and let me know if I can help in any way.

Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I do want the results to accurate and look good. I think I can pull off both. I know I can make it look good because finish touch up is a big part od the refinishing trade. I am touching up the woodwork in an 8 story building in San Francisco today.

I'm still considering doing everything as prescribed above but install threaded inserts in the dovetail and bolt it on instead of gluing. I would make the joint a perfect dry fit as prescribed then assemble and bolt. That way if I am a little off I can take it apart and adjust as needed. If it doesn't work I could always go back and glue it properly. Bad idea?


Plus I don't care how long it takes. It looks like fun to me. I don't plan on selling this guitar either so money is no object. Especially since I don't have any anyway.

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  #35  
Old 02-24-2016, 02:32 PM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johna2u View Post
I'm still considering doing everything as prescribed above but install threaded inserts in the dovetail and bolt it on instead of gluing. I would make the joint a perfect dry fit as prescribed then assemble and bolt. That way if I am a little off I can take it apart and adjust as needed. If it doesn't work I could always go back and glue it properly. Bad idea?
Not a bad idea at all... In fact it sounds like a fantastic idea, especially in this case where compromising originality and collectibility is of little consequence. I can't think of any other drawbacks.

Gluing the neck in is one of the scariest parts of doing this, simply because you never know for sure if the final result will be the same as your dry run until you take off the clamps and string it up. Bolting the neck on will relieve you of that headache.

My opinion is that there will be no difference in sound, as long as the dovetail is fit tightly. A bolt-on arrangement could allow for a fair amount of slop in the dovetail joint, since the bolt will pull the neck flush anyways, but I feel that it will sound better if you glue in shims to tighten the fit once you're happy with the neck angle. I have no way of verifying that assessment, but logic would dictate that a tighter fit is better.
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  #36  
Old 02-24-2016, 03:53 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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I guess the headstock overlay on these Sovereigns is some kind plastic or celluloid glued to the headstock. I have read that they tend to Crack and flake off over time. Mine was completely missing. So I think the collector value wouldn't be much on this guitar even though the rest is in great shape. I just want to enjoy it. I deal with customers every day that are concerned about the "value" of their family pieces. In most cases with furniture there really is no great value unless it is a museum quality piece that has remained untouched for two hundred years. Was made by Paul Revere and owned by Daniel Boone. Otherwise fixing and preserving things is a good thing. I know my bolt on idea changes the original design but it seems like an improvement to me.

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Last edited by johna2u; 02-24-2016 at 07:12 PM.
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  #37  
Old 02-27-2016, 12:06 AM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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OK looks like it's D day. If all goes well I am planning on pulling the neck tomorrow.
I have all the necessary paraphernalia gathered for the job.
I have adjusted the truss rod to create a pretty much flat neck.

Using the calculator on this website I am trying to calculate the amount needed to cut from the base of the heel.
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/Reset.htm
Ai = .47
At = .24
Lh = 8.57
Lb = 28.73

Using these measurements it says I need to remove .14 cm at the base of the heel.

I took these measurements with the strings under normal tension. It currently has extra light gauge strings. I'd like to use light gauge after the reset if possible.
Does this all sound about right? Any advice before take the leap?

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Last edited by johna2u; 02-27-2016 at 12:16 AM.
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  #38  
Old 02-27-2016, 04:21 AM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johna2u View Post
OK looks like it's D day. If all goes well I am planning on pulling the neck tomorrow.
I have all the necessary paraphernalia gathered for the job.
I have adjusted the truss rod to create a pretty much flat neck.

Using the calculator on this website I am trying to calculate the amount needed to cut from the base of the heel.
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/Reset.htm
Ai = .47
At = .24
Lh = 8.57
Lb = 28.73

Using these measurements it says I need to remove .14 cm at the base of the heel.

I took these measurements with the strings under normal tension. It currently has extra light gauge strings. I'd like to use light gauge after the reset if possible.
Does this all sound about right? Any advice before take the leap?

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I don't think that expressing the measurements in metric is the optimum way to get responses ... if you list the parameters in decimal inches, it becomes a lot more easily envisaged. It would also be preferable to string the instrument up with the gauge of strings you intend to use before you take the measurements.
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  #39  
Old 02-27-2016, 07:52 AM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
I don't think that expressing the measurements in metric is the optimum way to get responses ... if you list the parameters in decimal inches, it becomes a lot more easily envisaged. It would also be preferable to string the instrument up with the gauge of strings you intend to use before you take the measurements.
OK cm x .39 = inches according to Google so here goes


Using the calculator on this website I am trying to calculate the amount needed to cut from the base of the heel.
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/Reset.htm
Ai = .47cm. =.18"
At = .24. = .09"
Lh = 8.57. = 3.34"
Lb = 28.73= 11.2"

Using these measurements it says I need to remove

.14 cm = .05" at the base of the heel.

I started off with standard fractions of inches. Then converted that to centimeters, then converted that to decimal inches so there might be some glaring errors here.

Ai= current action height
At= desired action height
Lh= length of heel from bottom of heel to just below fingerboard binding
Lb= distance from neck to body connection to just butted up against saddle.

I will throw some light gauge strings on it and measure again.



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Last edited by johna2u; 02-27-2016 at 08:38 AM.
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  #40  
Old 02-27-2016, 08:36 AM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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I am probably going to do this by myself today if I get that far. I don't have a jig for pulling the neck. I was thinking I could screw a 2x4 to a work bench, rest the heel of the guitar on the edge of the 2x4 and gently press down on the shoulders of the guitar as I am applying stream. Do you think that will work?

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  #41  
Old 02-27-2016, 09:31 AM
Ben-Had Ben-Had is offline
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Personally, I've not found that formula very accurate for me but for me it errs on the good side, meaning it doesn't give you an ove rset.
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  #42  
Old 02-27-2016, 10:02 AM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben-Had View Post
Personally, I've not found that formula very accurate for me but for me it errs on the good side, meaning it doesn't give you an ove rset.
How do you measure it?

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  #43  
Old 02-27-2016, 12:44 PM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johna2u View Post
I am probably going to do this by myself today if I get that far. I don't have a jig for pulling the neck. I was thinking I could screw a 2x4 to a work bench, rest the heel of the guitar on the edge of the 2x4 and gently press down on the shoulders of the guitar as I am applying stream. Do you think that will work?
Maybe. I'd hate to do one without a neck removal jig. You could rig up something similar with clamps and (padded) 2x4's. The guys in that Harmony reset video that you posted just pulled the neck off, but I've never seen it done that way.

Either way, this is definitely a two person operation. Thick rubber gloves might be a good idea to protect your hands from the steam.

I'd say .050" is not too much to remove if the angle is bad, but I'd maybe start a bit more conservatively - you don't want to overset it!

In the past I've used the math equation in Don Teeter's book to calculate how much to take off the heel, but anymore, I just don't bother with it. I just take a conservative cut from the heel and try fitting it with temporary shims. Once it gets close, I also check progress under string tension. After doing this several times, I finally arrive at the ideal neck angle. Maybe it's more tedious than trusting a math equation to tell me exactly how much to remove, but this way, there's less risk of taking off too much of the heel.
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  #44  
Old 02-27-2016, 12:53 PM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Okay - for removing the neck, try two padded 2x4's sitting on either side of the fingerboard, and another 2x4 laying across them, spanning the fingerboard (I'd actually glue or screw these together). Position a padded caul on the bench directly beneath the heel cap. A bar clamp can then be clamped vertically from the bottom of the bench to the top of the 2x4 which is spanning the fingerboard. This should (with enough heat) force the neck out. A block at the rear of the guitar will also be needed to elevate the guitar off the bench somewhat, and to add stability. I think this could be a crude but effective way to remove a neck.
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  #45  
Old 02-27-2016, 01:25 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Ok great. Thanks for the advice. I just got my running around done and am alone in my refinishing shop. Here goes!

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