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#1
10-04-2014, 11:36 AM
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GURIAN Neck Replacement or Reset: 3 Expert Luthiers
Experts who can RESET or REPLACE your Gurian's Neck
After researching my brains out and talking with The Great Michael Gurian himself, these are the three luthiers/builders I recommend for an expert neck reset or a "neckectomy" - a full neck replacement for that wider neck you've been dreaming about since the 1980s  . Of course, there are probably other qualified Gurian luthiers. If you know one, please add his or her name and contact information to this thread.Tucker Barrett If you talk with Tucker Barrett you'll be inclined to just pack up your Gurian and FedEx* it to him. He seems like such a nice, modest guy and is very matter-of-fact in discussing your project. What a pleasure it is to talk with a master craftsman (and probably a genius) who is also a truly good listener and considerate human being. Zero pressure, zero drama and his rates are very reasonable. As I understand it, Mr Barrett got his start building Gurian guitars in Michael G's production facilities. Later he became (and still is) renowned for his groundbreaking electric violins/fiddles. He's entirely familiar with the Gurian pinned neck joint and how to repair it, and I'm sure he can modify it as discussed in subsequent paragraphs. Do a little Google homework and I'm sure you'll have full confidence in Mr Barrett and his capabilities. I do. LINK to Tucker Barrett's website Harry Becker & William Cumpiano Harry Becker is a highly regarded luthier and guitar builder. I stumbled into THIS PAGE on his website and nearly fell off my chair. It depicts the application of William Cumpiano's ingenious barrel-bolt bolt-on neck to a Gurian full-neck replacement. Too good! I "discovered" Mr Cumpiano's design about two years ago and spoke with several luthiers about implementing it, BUT..none were interested, saying they couldn't guarantee satisfactory results. An unfortunate lack-of-confidence on their parts, sez I. Just read the comments by Mr Becker's Swiss customer. Mr Becker and Mr Cumpiano have teamed up as partners or as associates. My understanding is that William Cumpiano got his start building Gurian guitars under Michael G. Clearly he understands Gurian neck design and the value to you, the owner, of having a neck that can easily be unbolted and removed from the guitar body if a reset or other adjustment becomes necessary. Figure $500-$600 for a standard neck reset; I'll bet this arrangement would knock the cost way down IF it ever became necessary... (Thank you, Mr President, for your "Fundamental Changes" that are turning us into a third-world nation. It's working at my house...) In the course of our conversation, Mr Becker said the neck accounts for approximately 50% of the cost of a guitar, so I assume he would charge approximately 50% of a typical guitar that he and/or Mr Cumpiano would build. I told Mr Becker that COST is an important factor for me at present, and ultimately he declined to quote a price. I'm not entirely sure how to take that, but I assume he imagined the cost to be beyond my means. Still, Harry Becker is an acknowledged expert and was very helpful. I enjoyed talking with him and recommend him and Mr Cumpiano for your Gurian neck replacement. I've wanted to have my Gurian neck replaced for several years now, and have been thinking about Mr Cumpiano's design for at least two years. I'm convinced that THIS is the ultimate method. Whichever of these fine craftsmen does the work for me, I will ask that the Cumpiano bolt-on neck joint be employed - and I suggest you do the same. LINK to Harry Becker's website LINK to William Cumpiano's website Micheal Millard of Froggy Bottom Guitars Micheal Millard (pronouced Mil-lard, emphasis on the second syllable) builds Froggy Bottom guitars, a highly regarded line of boutique hand-built acoustics. His lead time varies depending on the time of year, but is typically 7 to 8 months for a neck replacement such as this. Mr Millard started out building Gurian guitars for Michael G. in his production facilities. He's entirely familiar with the design, its implementation and how to repair it. Clearly he takes his work very seriously, and is particularly serious about the wood he uses. I'm sure you'll have no concerns about his work or the materials used in the replacement of your Gurian neck. Mr Millard estimated the cost of replacing my Gurian neck with a new neck built by him at approximately $2,200. He's polite and easy to talk with, and listens carefully to your requirements, concerns, etc. I liked him right from the start, and have every confidence in his craftsmanship and professionalism. I'm sure a "neckectomy" performed by Michael Millard will turn out "good as new" or better... LINK to Froggy Bottom Guitars website Frank Ford of Gryphon Stringed Instruments Frank Ford confirms in his posts #2 and #6 below that he is willing and able to perform either a neck replacement or a neck reset for your Gurian, but cautions that a full neck replacement could prove overly expensive. His excellent reputation speaks for itself, and you can look over his shoulder (in the online virtual sense) by visiting this excellent tutorial on how he resets a Gurian neck. Mr Ford does not accept work by shipment, but if you're able to bring your guitar to his facilities, I'm sure he'd be glad to discuss the work. Gryphon Stringed Instruments is located at 211 Lambert Avenue, Palo Alto, CA LINK to Frank Ford / Gryphon Stringed Instruments website Last word from me These men are busy professionals, so please don't just "call 'em up and shoot the breeze" if you're not serious about pursuing this in the near future. I've given you a good idea of what to expect in terms of capabilities, lead times and pricing - so I suggest you visit the links provided and mull it over for a while. If you feel that kick in the pants that says, "Yeah, it's time for me do this," then talk to all three (being as concise as possible) and send your Gurian off to the one who fits you best. Let us know what happens. * FYI: I find the cost of FedEx Ground shipping for an insured, cased acoustic guitar to be about 30% lower than UPS Ground. Last edited by BothHands; 10-07-2014 at 01:01 PM. 
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#2
10-04-2014, 01:25 PM
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The good news is that Gurian guitars were well made and they're quite workable from a repair/restoration standpoint. A competent luthier who is experienced with neck resetting or replacement on standard Martin guitars will be able to do similar work on Gurian guitars. The unique Gurian pinned neck joint does not present any significant difficulty.
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#3
10-04-2014, 01:26 PM
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Very good information. Thanks for taking the time to share what you have learned.
There are now a number of common variations on the bolt-on mortise and tenon joint. The use of barrel bolts is fairly common as is the use of treaded inserts, such as used by Taylor. Another variation, offered by Trevor Gore, is to use a metal (brass) insert the height of the heel and cross drill and thread to accept the bolts.
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#4
10-04-2014, 01:56 PM
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Have used Cumpiano's neck joining method on every build since I was made aware of it. Before that used a method that Slone devised. The barrel nut design is very easy to take apart and reset. No shims, no sneaking up on the fit, no steaming apart. Quite a contribution in my estimation by Cumpiano. But what do I know and just my opinion.
Tom
__________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything
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#5
10-04-2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Thank you for weighing in. I've read so many of your online articles, and have benefited greatly. It was your "Pinned Mortise" Reset, A 1973 Gurian" illustrated step-by-step tutorial that made me realize how well suited my Gurian JR is to having it's neck replaced. I've read and seriously studied the text and photos on that page many times over the past several years, and even saved the whole presentation to my hard drive. I've also referred several luthiers to that page for the sake of clarity in our discussions. While I have this opportunity, thank you for that information and for all your online teaching efforts. I should have included a link to your "Pinned Mortise" Reset page in my initial post, but failed to think of it. I focused on these three Gurian-specific luthiers in part because the several non-Gurian-specific luthiers with whom I discussed the operation wanted nothing to do with it. Then when I mentioned my narrow-neck problem to Mr Gurian over the phone, he said very plainly, "Well, you need to replace the neck..." as simple as that. I explained my difficulty in finding a willing luthier, so he had me hold for a minute and then provided the names of several luthiers whom he knows are qualified to do the work; skilled men who used to work with him building these guitars.I certainly appreciate your comments regarding this issue, and I have no doubt that FRANK FORD is immensely capable of replacing a Gurian neck with his own custom built neck. What I'm not sure of is whether you're interested in doing such work... If you are, please confirm that so we can add your name and contact information to the list. MAN! I'm amazed and honored to speak with Michael Gurian, Tucker Barrett, Harry Becker (w Bill Cumpiano in the background), Michael Millard, and now Frank Ford. It's a Who's Who of larger-than-life guitar luthiers, and I have to assume that my Gurian JR is a good luck charm or a talisman! Looks like I'd better keep it around, huh.
Last edited by BothHands; 10-06-2014 at 07:48 AM.
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#6
10-04-2014, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
That said, we're always set and ready here at Gryphon to take on Gurian neck resetting for our local customers.
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#7
10-05-2014, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
I'm glad you find the information useful. Per your comments I Googled "Trevor Gore neck joint" and found the following links: Trevor Gore Guitars, Neck Joint (page 1)Man, what an Eye Opener! I had never heard of Trevor Gore--probably because he's on the other side of the planet, and because I'll never be able to afford his work  --but I much appreciate the way he thinks. I've wondered for years if a bolt-on neck as used for electric guitars and basses could be adapted to a high-quality acoustic guitar. Clearly it can, and Mr Gore secures neck to body in two planes. That's how I'd do it (yeah, as if) based on my own real-world experiences in building 'structural things'.In the image below, is the green area the location of the tapped brass plate?  The Gore design makes my preferred twin barrel-bolt neck joint appear "less optimal" by comparison, but I'm aware of no widely-held complaints/objections, so perhaps (or I should say I hope) the Trevor Gore method might be overkill. Well-designed, well-intentioned and superbly executed overkill...IF indeed it is overkill. Thanks for making me/us aware of this.
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#8
10-05-2014, 11:56 AM
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If you play your cards right, Mr. Gore, himself, will answer your questions.
My point was that there are a variety of bolt-on options. The earliest [modern era] designs for bolt-on necks for acoustic guitars emulated the Fender design for the bolting of their necks to electric guitar bodies - screws from the back of the guitar into the neck. One example of that was found in Norman brand acoustic guitars. The next step was to butt the neck/heel against the body and put two screws through the neck block into the end grain of the neck/heel. Screwing into end grain isn't nearly as strong as side grain. One remedy to the lack of strength was to use threaded inserts driven into the end grain, which improves the pull-out strength of the bolted/screwed connection. This was the earliest of the Taylor bolt-on designs. The next step in the evolution of bolt-on necks was to replace the dovetail joint between neck and body with a mortise and tenon and two bolts. One variation of that was to use threaded inserts driven into the end grain of the heel. This was an early Taylor approach. Another variation was to cross-drill the tenon and insert threaded "barrels" - cylindrical pieces of metal cross-drilled and taped. Bolts inserted into the neck block thread into the barrels embedded in the tenon. Think IKEA. This is the Cumpiano design. Yet another variation was to simply cross-drill and insert hard wooden dowels and screw into those - screwing into the side grain of the dowel rather than the end grain of the neck/heel. All variations on how to increase the pull-out strength and avoid screwing into end grain. Each of the above options relies upon gluing the extension of the fingerboard to the top. During a neck reset, in which the angle at which the neck meets the body changes, the fingerboard extension is no longer in the same plane as the top. This needs to be "managed" in one of a number of ways. Typically, the fingerboard extension must be "un-glued" from the top, adjusted and then re-glued and some finish repairs may need to be performed. The next step in the evolution of neck/body attachment is to eliminate any reliance of the neck/fingerboard assembly on the body. Specifically, create an assembly that fits to the body in which the extension of the fingerboard is not glued to the top. This allows the angle of the entire assembly to be altered as a single unit. It eliminates the fingerboard being glued to the top and the need to un attach it in order to change the neck angle. There are a number of designs that accomplish that. Most involve gluing the fingerboard extension to an extension of the neck/heel arrangement. That extension is then fit into a pocket in the body assembly designed to accommodate that. Taylor was an early adopter of that design. The neck is attached to the body with bolts into the end grain (threaded inserts) of the heel and the fingerboard extension is attached with bolts through the guitar's top and the underlying structure. A pair of tapered shims sets the angle of the entire neck assembly relative to the body. This, in turn, establishes the string height at the bridge. Instead of shaving/shimming the saddle to change string height (action), one changes the neck assembly angle, by inserting a different set of tapered shims. Mr. Gore has published a design that is funcitonally similar. One of the differences is that instead of using threaded inserts, he has created a square mortise in the heel perpendicular to the surface of the neck. That is, it runs the depth of the body/heel. The bar is concealed in the heel by the heel cap. Into that mortise he inserts a brass bar. That bar is cross drilled and threaded to accept the two bolts inserted through the neck bock in the body of the guitar. It is a stronger arrangement than threaded inserts driven into end grain. (It may be overkill, but it is certainly robust.) He also has a proprietary version of the arrangement that allows the neck angle to be changed quickly and easily using a lever, eliminating the need for disassembly and exchange of one set of tapered shims for another. Others, still, have an arrangement that allows the neck assembly angle to be changed using a different mechanism. One example is to insert a key in a hole in the heel that, by turning the key, alters the neck assembly angle. The earliest of these designs date back to the late 1800's, though the designs were never commonplace on commercial instruments. In addition to the obvious advantages of being able to quickly and easily "reset" the neck angle, being able to do so maintains the optimal height of the strings at the bridge, eliminating any loss in tone or power that occurs when the strings are lowered by shaving the saddle or bridge. With these designs, shaving saddles and the traditional $600 neck reset are things of the past. I expect that is the natural evolution of guitar design. I should also mention that Mr. Gore has published a two-volume set of books on the subject of guitar design and construction. They represent the current state of the art. Last edited by charles Tauber; 10-05-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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#9
10-05-2014, 01:23 PM
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The red highlights are the high points for me, and I can't understand why even mid-level mass-produced guitars haven't already incorporated this feature (assuming Mr Gore hasn't locked up the international patents  ). Sure, there'd be some pretty intense "teething pain" at first, but once a builder or large manufacturer performs the R&D, retools and debugs, I think they as makers/sellers and WE as buyers/players would reap tremendous benefits.I seriously doubt such a design as Mr Gore's could be retrofit to a typical glued-dovetail neck joint, though I wouldn't put it past him! . That said, I'm glad I haven't poured big money into any standard-built guitar of late. My perspective on this is greatly expanded by this discussion, and assuming I get to purchase a very good guitar, it will involve a neck joint wherein the entire neck structure pivots as a unit, relative to the saddle. That's 'The Holy Grail' as far as I'm concerned, and as I've always been a fan of 'Dayown Unda', I might buy one of Mr Gore's creations IF I can ever swing it.TOO GOOD, sez I! Thanks, Charles.
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#10
10-05-2014, 02:43 PM
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"Technology" is a large and fascinating subject. One thing that is sure, regarding that subject, is that it is constantly changing. Not all changes in technology are necessarily "advancements": history determines what is valued innovation and actual improvement and what isn't.
There is, and always has been, resistance to change. Some are all for it; some deny that a particular change is "an improvement". Some people just like "tradition" and the sense of continuity it provides. Guitar design, being a specific field of technology, is no different. Since I started making guitars in 1977, there has been tremendous change, both in technology and in player preferences. Regardless, there are still many guitar players who like tradition - traditional designs, traditional materials and traditional finishes. Some companies cater to that. They make money by doing so - "Since 1833". For that reason, I don't see dovetail joints, nitrocellulose lacquer, rosewood, mahogany or many other traditional appointments disappearing anytime soon. People like them and are comfortable with them. Whether or not something is "better" is in the eye and assessment of the beholder. Often, "better" is what is the current fashion, what people get used to. As you know, fashions change. As for converting a dovetail joint to a bolt-on mortise and tenon, nearly anything is possible if one is willing to pay enough to have it done and someone else is willing to do it for that price. For example, you've been quoted $2200 to convert from a pin joint to a bolt-on by making a new neck. That's the same price range as converting from a dovetail to a bolt-on, all-in-one pivoting neck: a neck reset will run 1/4 of the cost and likely last an additional 20 or more years. As I'm sure you are aware, one needs to compare the "value" of spending $2200 on an old guitar to replace its neck versus simply buying a new guitar that already has the desired neck width for the same price. Sentimental reasons enter into the equation and owning a piece of history, such as a Gurian guitar. I met Mr. Gurian at his mill/factory in New Hampshire in 1977. We talked about how he determines if a tree the diameter of the house is going to make good guitar tops. We toured the mill. I still have on my shop wall a cut-out piece of one of his shipping boxes - the part with his logo - in which I received wood I purchased from him (realistically, his business). I still have a mahogany neck blank that has singe marks on it from the fire that ultimately ended that era of his business. I still have one of his catalogues from that time. The name "Gurian" brings back lots of memories for me. I'm glad he literally rose from the ashes and went on to do other things.
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#11
10-05-2014, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
http://riversongguitars.com/
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#12
10-05-2014, 03:11 PM
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At our shop we have plenty of experience talking to folks who have custom necks or other features on guitars they want to sell because what they thought was perfect at the time turned out not to fit their needs later.
Just saying'. . .
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#13
10-05-2014, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
You might find out down the line that your left hand has started to shrink, and that you should have kept the narrow neck on your Gurian . . .
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#14
10-05-2014, 05:51 PM
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Charles Tauber wrote:I soaked up every word you wrote, Charles, but singled this passage out for reply. In no way am I interested in arguing with anyone here; I much appreciate this level of discourse with you all. The following points are meant purely as a response: 1) I know I can have the neck replaced for considerably less than $2200.I didn't realize you're a guitar builder, Charles (I need to do some homework). BTW, I'm sure your nostalgia for Gurian history is shared by many. Would YOU, as a custom builder, be willing to implement Trevor Gore's neck joint - the version wherein the entire neck structure pivots as a unit to maintain correct, adjustable alignment with the bridge and saddle? In light of Frank Ford's caveat and Murray's urging me to take heed of it (thanks to you both ) I guess one drawback might be a potential reduction in resonance/vibration as compared to a traditional neck joint. In other words, the means of adjusting the joint might preclude the joint being truly solid with maximum surface contact area as found in a traditional glued neck joint. If that's true, I just want to say how sick and tired I am of gettin' kicked around by  Physics.
Last edited by BothHands; 10-06-2014 at 07:24 AM.
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#15
10-05-2014, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
I'll just keep the Gurian and see what happens! HA!!!
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