to solfège or not, that be the question

[RJVB]

I've touched upon this before: I learned to play the violin through the usual classical curriculum in my local music school in the Netherlands, starting at age 9 or 10. I was very much into playing gypsy like "tunes" then, and working diligently through the various "études" my teacher prescribed. Came the day she tried to start to introduce me to bits of theory. Apparently I made it abundantly clear I couldn't be bothered. Contrary to here in France there was no compulsory solfège class everyone had to take, and my teacher quickly gave in/up because "yeah, you don't really need this [as a violinist who at best will end up in an orchestra somewhere]". The rest of the staff didn't correct her, and I never got myself to fill any but the most obvious and easiest-to-fill gaps in my knowledge. Because, indeed, you don't really need "that" in order to play from scores, or even to do diminutions (cadenzas, little improvisations) on them. After all, the kind of theory you learn in solfège class is "just" a formalisation of how/why we feel and like music, right?

Right?

I do know I have a handicap in this domain, making it way less obvious for me to learn how to play non-classical music. I understand things like movable shapes, and how you could play a song by knowing the melody and the chord progression, but when I try to start applying the little knowledge I do have and try to expand on it, find chords elsewhere on the fretboard etc. it is quickly as if my brain shuts the door. I fear that at 52 and a trained research scientist I'm still at the level where I have to learn this sort of thing without realising I'm learning it.
I had the chance to chat with Doug Macleod a few months back, and touched upon this, how I couldn't even begin to imagine how (largely self-taught) players could jam together by just looking at each others fingers, possibly singing at the same time. He admitted he had the same feeling about classicaly players being able to play from a score - even if he referred to sightreading (which can indeed be real feat) it didn't really help in the confidence department.

The subject also came up when I re-enrolled at the local music school where I'm at now; the normal programme now also includes a compulsory solfège class, even for adults (unless you pay a bit more to go "hors parcours" and take just the instrumental class). The price difference is smaller than what the extra 1h/week and gas for the extra return trips would cost me, and no one has been able to tell me exactly what would be taught during that class and how much of it would be directly beneficial to learning to play fingerpicking blues and related styles. Learning (again...) to read various key or to transpose a score on the fly or to analyse a composition to understand why we like it or not doesn't strike me as particularly relevant - but I could be wrong.
Anyway, for now I have decided to keep taking just the 30min guitar lesson and maybe enroll in the blues workshop they have when I'm at the point where I can mostly get my guitar to make the sound I want even with distraction or playing something I haven't yet practised (a lot). My guess would be that such a workshop wouldn't be able NOT to discuss the necessary theory.

FWIW, yes, I'm taking lessons with a classical guitar teacher, there's not much of another option here. At least it's cheap, and she's agreed to work on repertoire of my choosing. There's a lot of fingerpicking repertoire that isn't too different from (certain) classical compositions, and there's classical repertoire that has clearly been inspired by popuplar music. In parallel I have a bunch of video courses and transcriptions of bluesy and boogyish pieces, a few rags etc. to work on, hoping that'll at least train my fingers and ears.

But at some point I'd really love to be able to sit down, think of an appropriate tune and say, Dubb-style, "that's gonna sound exactly like this tonight" ...
Does that sound as a reasonable aspiration, if we forget about never being too old to learn for a moment?

[Howard Emerson]

There’s a lot to be said about ear training and knowing basic theory, especially for playing guitar as opposed to violin.

Don’t fuss too much about it. As I pointed out in another thread it’s good to get in touch with your other side; The one that’s not so organized and strict.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Don’t fuss too much about it. As I pointed out in another thread it’s good to get in touch with your other side; The one that’s not so organized and strict.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

I always look forward to reading Howard's posts. It's the little nuggets like these that (should) stick around in your brain because they make so much good sense.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

There’s a lot to be said about ear training and knowing basic theory, especially for playing guitar as opposed to violin.

I think that one of the reasons I didn't "break through" more with my *baroque* violin playing (and ultimately gave up) is exactly my lack of theoretical knowledge. And don't tell me ear training is less important for playing guitar than for playing violin (or try playing one yourself, if you never have :P )

Don’t fuss too much about it. As I pointed out in another thread it’s good to get in touch with your other side; The one that’s not so organized and strict.

That's a dangerous thing to say to me, but thanks. Except that for me the other side would probably be "more organised and not so strict"

Did you point that out in reaction to something I said, btw? (If you did... sorry for not remembering it ... see what I mean about organisation in the side I'm currently in touch with? ....)

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I think that one of the reasons I didn't "break through" more with my *baroque* violin playing (and ultimately gave up) is exactly my lack of theoretical knowledge. And don't tell me ear training is less important for playing guitar than for playing violin (or try playing one yourself, if you never have :P )



That's a dangerous thing to say to me, but thanks. Except that for me the other side would probably be "more organised and not so strict"

Did you point that out in reaction to something I said, btw? (If you did... sorry for not remembering it ... see what I mean about organisation in the side I'm currently in touch with? ....)

Good pitch is paramount when playing violin. Ear training is another thing altogether.

You went on, at length, about being stuck in your ways, basically, and if you don’t quite get that I’m attempting to get you to ‘loosen up’ in the name of progress, that’s fine.

I’m one of those self taught players, you spoke about, who can play with others without knowing the chords.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

[RJVB]

Are you self-taught entirely on your own, or did you learn together with others?

I'll try to see what I can do about loosening up... but I still feel that what I need is breaking out of the ways/attitudes/whatever that I am indeed a bit stuck in, and I'm not sure that loosening up will get me there.
Me, I need either discipline to learn something, or the right inspiration. I guess what I'd really need is to figure out (or be taught) how to make learning chords fun. Or how to have fun while learning them, which is not entirely the same thing. There are a lot of videos out there which aim to help you with this, but I'm not convinced you can "get there" from video instructions alone.

For example, the other day I sat down to try to follow some advice (from a video) that seemed useful and accessible: find your typical E7 chord in different locations on the fretboard, and then find the closest A7 and ditto B7. Not so simple as the video made it seem to be, in part because I realised I don't have a clue which notes you can leave out of those chords. Or how to start getting that knowledge of which shapes at what position give this or that chord.

I did find an E7 (I think in A shape) that isn't in my "Guitar Chords for Dummies" book though, hah! That almost felt like the eureka moment I've been waiting for

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Are you self-taught entirely on your own, or did you learn together with others?

I'll try to see what I can do about loosening up... but I still feel that what I need is breaking out of the ways/attitudes/whatever that I am indeed a bit stuck in, and I'm not sure that loosening up will get me there.
Me, I need either discipline to learn something, or the right inspiration. I guess what I'd really need is to figure out (or be taught) how to make learning chords fun. Or how to have fun while learning them, which is not entirely the same thing. There are a lot of videos out there which aim to help you with this, but I'm not convinced you can "get there" from video instructions alone.

For example, the other day I sat down to try to follow some advice (from a video) that seemed useful and accessible: find your typical E7 chord in different locations on the fretboard, and then find the closest A7 and ditto B7. Not so simple as the video made it seem to be, in part because I realised I don't have a clue which notes you can leave out of those chords. Or how to start getting that knowledge of which shapes at what position give this or that chord.

I did find an E7 (I think in A shape) that isn't in my "Guitar Chords for Dummies" book though, hah! That almost felt like the eureka moment I've been waiting for

I never took any group lessons, and what led me to take up guitar when I was 12 years old was a neighbor who played. I asked him to show me something one day, and then my parents bought me a guitar.

I did play violin prior to that, so I understand. I'm certain I had really good pitch, but didn't enjoy playing it. My sense of pitch carries over to this day in playing bottleneck guitar & Hawaiian style Dobro, lap steel, etc.

My early discoveries with guitar came because I listened to records that I enjoyed, and then tried to find the notes on the guitar. Being dyslexic I was always asking the band leader or teacher 'What does that passage sound like?' I also played French horn and piano for bit before discovering guitar.

When I figured out how to fingerpick (while cutting class at Berklee School of Music) the die was cast, and I dropped out after a couple of months. I only attended to avoid be drafted.

You may do well to find a group of other guitar neophytes who just want to learn folk music based around mostly basic chord structure & using a capo. You'll absorb how ever much you absorb, and use that knowledge to find your own way.

Unless you have aspirations of becoming an accomplished guitarist, there's absolutely nothing wrong with 'developing some bad habits'. People used to tell me that wrapping my thumb around to grab the 6th string was a bad habit. In certain circles that may be true, but in others it's totally necessary, acceptable & admired.

Videos, while sometimes helpful, never answer you when you ask if you're doing something correctly, and they almost ALWAYS make certain assumptions about how much a viewer knows. That's why, as a teacher, I don't teach beginners, but I well know how to observe & listen to what my student is doing when responding to what I'm showing them.

Their 'bad habits' are only 'bad' if they preclude them from being able to do something I'm teaching them. If they plant their pinky on the pickguard I don't care, until they tell me they're having pain in their forearm........

Best,
Howard Emerson

[Mandobart]

In any endeavor, it only makes sense to learn and use as many tools as possible. What carpenter thinks "sure a bubble level is great for those that need it, I just feel when things are plumb" or "saws are overrated, all I need is a sharp knife."

Sightreading is fine. I still practice it. Ear training is great, that's how I learn most songs today. Understanding chord structure, circle of fifths, modes, etc. helps me transpose on the fly. Capos are great for bluegrass guitar. Not great for mandolin or fiddle.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

My early discoveries with guitar came because I listened to records that I enjoyed, and then tried to find the notes on the guitar. Being dyslexic I was always asking the band leader or teacher 'What does that passage sound like?' I also played French horn and piano for bit before discovering guitar.

I actually did the same on violin, and got pretty good at it, if the unconscious ease which which I could repeat repeat diminutions others made in small ensemble playing. Of course these are thought melodically, or at least I thought them that way. And I've already been getting more at ease playing bits of melodies I know at different locations of the fretboard.

Interesting observation about dyslexia, I wasn't aware that this also affected the perception of music (unless you mean you had trouble reading scores?).

When I figured out how to fingerpick (while cutting class at Berklee School of Music) the die was cast, and I dropped out after a couple of months. I only attended to avoid be drafted.

That sounds a lot like Doug Macleod's path; same school, more or less the same result, except the part of not being drafted (he did a stint with the navy).

You may do well to find a group of other guitar neophytes who just want to learn folk music based around mostly basic chord structure & using a capo. You'll absorb how ever much you absorb, and use that knowledge to find your own way.

That's definitely something I plan/hope to do, for instance in the blues workshop I mentioned. The fact those are run by a teacher shouldn't hurt.

Unless you have aspirations of becoming an accomplished guitarist

I don't like doing things halfway so yeah, as accomplished as possible
And yes, I just found a passage where I actually manage to use my thumb, I haven't gotten around to see my teacher's reaction though ^^

Videos, while sometimes helpful, never answer you when you ask if you're doing something correctly, and they almost ALWAYS make certain assumptions about how much a viewer knows.

Yes, and yes. Nor do they tell you when you're doing something wrong (but don't realise it). That's why I'm glad that the teacher I ended up with accepts to work on these too; we spent weeks working through Mike Dowling's Nitpickin' for instance. Not that I can say that I mastered it or feel like letting the world listen to my interpretation but I'm not unhappy with myself on how I manage(d) given how long I've been working the instrument.

If they plant their pinky on the pickguard I don't care, until they tell me they're having pain in their forearm

There are basically 2 schools for that, no? If memory serves me well Chet Atkins taught to anchor the pinky, I know Justin Johnson does the same (unless he picks with it ), lute players also anchor, but my lute playing friend also told me you'd better not if you want to pick with the ringfinger.

[rick-slo]

You don't need much theory (if any) to actually play stuff. That's more for talking about things, like in this thread. You are not going to be calculating theory on the fly while playing.


Learn patterns (more true for guitar than violin with its chords and picking patterns) and develop an ear to hear which ones to use in what styles. Do that by learning some tunes in styles you want to play.


Topic made me think of this video by forum member Rick Ruskin:

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I've touched upon this before: I learned to play the violin through the usual classical curriculum in my local music school in the Netherlands, starting at age 9 or 10. I was very much into playing gypsy like "tunes" then, and working diligently through the various "études" my teacher prescribed. Came the day she tried to start to introduce me to bits of theory. Apparently I made it abundantly clear I couldn't be bothered. Contrary to here in France there was no compulsory solfège class everyone had to take, and my teacher quickly gave in/up because "yeah, you don't really need this [as a violinist who at best will end up in an orchestra somewhere]". The rest of the staff didn't correct her, and I never got myself to fill any but the most obvious and easiest-to-fill gaps in my knowledge. Because, indeed, you don't really need "that" in order to play from scores, or even to do diminutions (cadenzas, little improvisations) on them. After all, the kind of theory you learn in solfège class is "just" a formalisation of how/why we feel and like music, right?

Right?

I do know I have a handicap in this domain, making it way less obvious for me to learn how to play non-classical music. I understand things like movable shapes, and how you could play a song by knowing the melody and the chord progression, but when I try to start applying the little knowledge I do have and try to expand on it, find chords elsewhere on the fretboard etc. it is quickly as if my brain shuts the door. I fear that at 52 and a trained research scientist I'm still at the level where I have to learn this sort of thing without realising I'm learning it.
I had the chance to chat with Doug Macleod a few months back, and touched upon this, how I couldn't even begin to imagine how (largely self-taught) players could jam together by just looking at each others fingers, possibly singing at the same time. He admitted he had the same feeling about classicaly players being able to play from a score - even if he referred to sightreading (which can indeed be real feat) it didn't really help in the confidence department.

The subject also came up when I re-enrolled at the local music school where I'm at now; the normal programme now also includes a compulsory solfège class, even for adults (unless you pay a bit more to go "hors parcours" and take just the instrumental class). The price difference is smaller than what the extra 1h/week and gas for the extra return trips would cost me, and no one has been able to tell me exactly what would be taught during that class and how much of it would be directly beneficial to learning to play fingerpicking blues and related styles. Learning (again...) to read various key or to transpose a score on the fly or to analyse a composition to understand why we like it or not doesn't strike me as particularly relevant - but I could be wrong.
Anyway, for now I have decided to keep taking just the 30min guitar lesson and maybe enroll in the blues workshop they have when I'm at the point where I can mostly get my guitar to make the sound I want even with distraction or playing something I haven't yet practised (a lot). My guess would be that such a workshop wouldn't be able NOT to discuss the necessary theory.

FWIW, yes, I'm taking lessons with a classical guitar teacher, there's not much of another option here. At least it's cheap, and she's agreed to work on repertoire of my choosing. There's a lot of fingerpicking repertoire that isn't too different from (certain) classical compositions, and there's classical repertoire that has clearly been inspired by popuplar music. In parallel I have a bunch of video courses and transcriptions of bluesy and boogyish pieces, a few rags etc. to work on, hoping that'll at least train my fingers and ears.

But at some point I'd really love to be able to sit down, think of an appropriate tune and say, Dubb-style, "that's gonna sound exactly like this tonight" ...
Does that sound as a reasonable aspiration, if we forget about never being too old to learn for a moment?

As you're in France, one thing to clear up here (you may be aware of it but others may not) is the difference between fixed do and movable do.

As I understand it, the French system (like much of continental Europe) uses fixed do. This is essentially where "do re mi fa sol la ti do" is identical to "C D E F G A B C". I.e, "do" = "C", regardless of the key of the music.
So a piece of music in D major would be said to be in "re majeur".

"Movable do" is where "do" = "tonic". For a piece in D major, then, "D = do".
This - IMO - is a much more useful system, and would certainly be the basis of solfege as taught in the US and Britain (and maybe several other places).

I.e., ear training is about relative pitch, not absolute pitch. We hear every note in a piece of music as relating to its keynote (and each chord root and other melody notes). We don't hear it relating to an arbitrary external absolute reference, whether that's A=440, or "C=do".

So my advice regarding that solfege class would depend entirely on whether they used fixed or movable do. If the latter, it would be very useful - maybe not directly for your guitar playing, but certainly for opening up your ears and improving your awareness and sensitivity to music in general. If the former - I can't see what use that would be at all.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by RJVB

....interesting observation about dyslexia, I wasn't aware that this also affected the perception of music (unless you mean you had trouble reading scores?)....

The musical equivalent of dyslexia would likely be amusia.

Originally Posted by RJVB

....That sounds a lot like Doug Macleod's path; same school, more or less the same result, except the part of not being drafted (he did a stint with the navy).....

To the best of my knowledge the USN has always been volunteer only. A lot of guys I served with joined the navy after their draft number (for the US army) got called up.

Originally Posted by RJVB

....There are basically 2 schools for that, no? If memory serves me well Chet Atkins taught to anchor the pinky, I know Justin Johnson does the same (unless he picks with it ), lute players also anchor, but my lute playing friend also told me you'd better not if you want to pick with the ringfinger.

I'm an anti-planter. The more you're free to move your picking hand, the better. I play all the mandolin family instruments including liuto cantabile and choose not to plant anything below the right forearm. But that's just what works for me.

[RJVB]

I was of course talking about fingerpicking (or classical technique) on guitar

[Howard Emerson]

So......just to be clear, and in context to my comments in the original conversation......

RJVB said:"....interesting observation about dyslexia, I wasn't aware that this also affected the perception of music (unless you mean you had trouble reading scores?)...."

Yes, my dyslexia has all to do with reading, and NOTHING to do with my hearing.

And then this:
"....That sounds a lot like Doug Macleod's path; same school, more or less the same result, except the part of not being drafted (he did a stint with the navy)....."

Yes, I went to college to avoid the draft because my number was 42.

And finally there was "....There are basically 2 schools for that, no? If memory serves me well Chet Atkins taught to anchor the pinky, I know Justin Johnson does the same (unless he picks with it ), lute players also anchor, but my lute playing friend also told me you'd better not if you want to pick with the ringfinger."

I don't care if a student anchors their pinky or not, BUT: If they tell me they've got forearm pain because they're pressing down so hard (and they have, believe me), or the anchoring doesn't allow them to do certain moves with the thumb, etc, THEN I tell them not to.

For what it's worth I play more from the elbow than anything else.

Anchoring for most players starts as a security blanket employed because they're afraid their fingers will miss strings because the whole hand moves.

HE

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I was of course talking about fingerpicking (or classical technique) on guitar

I find planting a finger anywhere is even more limiting when fingerpicking.