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  #16  
Old 01-10-2022, 07:53 AM
rmp rmp is offline
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Originally Posted by RedJoker View Post
These two quotes spoke to me because, though I don't like quack, I'm also not going to spend tons of money trying every gadget trying to fight it. If I hear someone play and I don't like the guitar tone, I don't assume they don't care. They may just be poor, frugal, playing a borrowed rig that they haven't tuned, whatever. Lots of reasons that have nothing to do with 'not caring.'
It can be a red herring. There is a point of diminishing returns here. Like where an EQ pedal can solve most of it for not a lot of cash. A device like the Tonedexter kills it, but those, and similar products like it aint cheap.

"back in the day" we'd plug the acoustics right into the guitar amps, and mic them from the stage, the same way we'd mic our electrics and we thought it was "ok"... how times can change..
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  #17  
Old 01-10-2022, 08:05 AM
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There are always going to be issues, some we become de-sensitised to, others we become obsessive about.

It used to be ball bearings (fret rattle), then it was what you're discussing, for me it's the horrific clang (beautiful creaminess) of mag pickups. As soon as we agree that the (magically feedback-free) mic is the only way to go someone will complain about the harshness of something, it's all a matter of degree.

I first played with stick-on piezos, Schaller clip-on mags and passive USTs so I Was There!

This is just the current sensitivity which can be made good, or not. Some folks will love it, don't forget distortion on guitars once the quack of yesteryear.
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  #18  
Old 01-10-2022, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tnfiddler View Post
I know the general public doesn’t care, but I don’t understand how any musician who hears the unplugged tone of their guitar, could so easily accept a metallic, quacky tone!
Most the time I don't think general audiences really notice guitar tone.
A lot of performers are about performing via singing and not guitar playing really. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not me or you though. There are people with all sorts of machines on stage. Don't get me started about chorus pedals.

I watched a bluegrass band the other day that were very good and the guitar flat picking sound was good. It stood up as good as I've heard within a bluesgrass band. He had a pedal board any hard rock guitarist would be jealous of. I didn't even ask about it.
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  #19  
Old 01-10-2022, 09:48 AM
Peter Z Peter Z is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedJoker View Post
These two quotes spoke to me because, though I don't like quack, I'm also not going to spend tons of money trying every gadget trying to fight it. If I hear someone play and I don't like the guitar tone, I don't assume they don't care. They may just be poor, frugal, playing a borrowed rig that they haven't tuned, whatever. Lots of reasons that have nothing to do with 'not caring.'
RedJoker,
I never meant that players don’t care and I truly hope my post has no arrogant attitude - I’m not a native speaker so I feel a bit bad now.

I understand that money point very well, I had to build my first guitar amp and PA by myself without knowing what to do. Also, for years, I had no idea what would help against quack - luckily because I didn’t have the money to solve it. And back then I mostly played electric.

Also, I have no problem with players who like the quack. It just drives me crazy and disturbed my playing.

All in all, I never intended to put somebody down. I’m really sorry if it came over like that.
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  #20  
Old 01-10-2022, 10:06 AM
kevinplarson kevinplarson is offline
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This thing here attacks the quack very well

https://amzn.to/339jWei

https://youtu.be/8w6_OdaY4Z8

It makes your guitar sound like… your guitar.
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  #21  
Old 01-10-2022, 10:31 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Like many others, I went through the UST hell,
then to the Baggs internal mic/ UST compromise,
ten finally I bought a used guitar which had the K&K true mini (?) plus internal mic (ouch) and their belt mini mixer.

Got e basic true minis put i a couple of other guitars. including my 12 string, but after some disappointing gigs where however plugged in the club owners/engineers messed it up at their mixer so my Collings dread sounded like a Fender Tele, I gave up.

One club - stacks wih audience I had no time to sound check but the organiser, and old friend stood at he desk and made such a mess of it that I pulled the plug and asked the audience if I could sing/play un-amped.
they loved it, although friend was put out.

I would not go back as the sound in that club is so bad and so loud that it hurts, although he fills the place!

Ever since I just use my Rode Nt1 for both vox and guitar, and get compliments but how natural it sounds.
Until further closure in December that's what I used for all acts in my club too.

Just before the first lock down Feb 2020, I was told of an "open mic" in a nearby pub so went along to "suss it out".

Medium sized room, pa large enough for the Albert Hall.
Willing organiser and p.a. "controller burt all too loud and poorly EQd.

I went on and asked to use just the two SM58s .

one on my guitar and ne on my voice. He seems confised by this and kept pushing the mics until one touched ym strings and the other my lips (!)

I re positioned (six inches is close enough). He introduced me and some applauded and others just continued talking as they had been all evening.

i started and all (but me) fell silent. They started ...listening.
then people from the other bar came in and listened, and the guys from the pool hall came closer.

I got a big hand -yeah, I can sing and play OK , but with a clean moderate n messed up sound hey ... listened.

After my spot some young chap spent fifteen minutes setting up his "pedal board" and other impedimenta and everyone went back to talking and shouting through his set.

After being asked a host of questions at the door, I left quietly.

Sadly - then we had lockdown,and I haven't been to a pub since.
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2022, 01:15 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
Like many others, I went through the UST hell,
then to the Baggs internal mic/ UST compromise,
ten finally I bought a used guitar which had the K&K true mini (?) plus internal mic (ouch) and their belt mini mixer.

Got e basic true minis put i a couple of other guitars. including my 12 string, but after some disappointing gigs where however plugged in the club owners/engineers messed it up at their mixer so my Collings dread sounded like a Fender Tele, I gave up.

One club - stacks wih audience I had no time to sound check but the organiser, and old friend stood at he desk and made such a mess of it that I pulled the plug and asked the audience if I could sing/play un-amped.
they loved it, although friend was put out.

I would not go back as the sound in that club is so bad and so loud that it hurts, although he fills the place!

Ever since I just use my Rode Nt1 for both vox and guitar, and get compliments but how natural it sounds.
Until further closure in December that's what I used for all acts in my club too.

Just before the first lock down Feb 2020, I was told of an "open mic" in a nearby pub so went along to "suss it out".

Medium sized room, pa large enough for the Albert Hall.
Willing organiser and p.a. "controller burt all too loud and poorly EQd.

I went on and asked to use just the two SM58s .

one on my guitar and ne on my voice. He seems confised by this and kept pushing the mics until one touched ym strings and the other my lips (!)

I re positioned (six inches is close enough). He introduced me and some applauded and others just continued talking as they had been all evening.

i started and all (but me) fell silent. They started ...listening.
then people from the other bar came in and listened, and the guys from the pool hall came closer.

I got a big hand -yeah, I can sing and play OK , but with a clean moderate n messed up sound hey ... listened.

After my spot some young chap spent fifteen minutes setting up his "pedal board" and other impedimenta and everyone went back to talking and shouting through his set.

After being asked a host of questions at the door, I left quietly.

Sadly - then we had lockdown,and I haven't been to a pub since.
That's awesome! However, it sounds more like a lack of understanding of live sound vs. people listening because the guitar was mic'd and natural. By lack of understanding, I mean the venue. Sounds like their PA was too much for the space.
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  #23  
Old 01-10-2022, 01:16 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinplarson View Post
This thing here attacks the quack very well

https://amzn.to/339jWei

https://youtu.be/8w6_OdaY4Z8

It makes your guitar sound like… your guitar.
I have been close to getting this on a few occasions. My issue is that out of all the IR pedals out there, the Voiceprint tends to sound the least impressive in demoes. I do however think it has the most ability to eq in the proper tone.

The trouble with IR's is simply making them work live. Cool concept, but once on stage, the guitar seems to disappear. I still might try one though as I like that the Voceprint allows for eq of just the IR. That's huge IMO.
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  #24  
Old 01-10-2022, 01:50 PM
Tnfiddler Tnfiddler is offline
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How ironic that I put this thread on, then jump onto YouTube and find this video!! Lots of the comments reflect how I feel!!

https://youtu.be/f1Z-cUiYVUM
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  #25  
Old 01-10-2022, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnfiddler View Post
How ironic that I put this thread on, then jump onto YouTube and find this video!! Lots of the comments reflect how I feel!!

https://youtu.be/f1Z-cUiYVUM
Of course. But the answer to your question, "Is quack just accepted", is still "yes" for an awful lot of people, other musicians included. No, pickups don't sound like an acoustic guitar, and sure, they can sound hideous. But as mentioned, people often don't know or don't care so much.

Quote:
The trouble with IR's is simply making them work live. Cool concept, but once on stage, the guitar seems to disappear.
Sometimes, you actually need a touch of that "icepick" to break through, especially when you are competing with other instruments. The attack is often what makes the sound, and a piezo pickup actually gives you that. Used judiciously, it can be a benefit, believe it or not.
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  #26  
Old 01-10-2022, 01:57 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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PSA - Top-Secret Cold War-era dossier, recently discovered in an abandoned underground CIA bunker somewhere in the Alleghenies and obtained/published under FOIA :

When Charlie Kaman developed the first successful piezo acoustic-electric pickups for Ovation in the mid-1960's, it was with the expectation that they would be used with the pro/semi-pro amplification of their day - meaning an American-voiced, mid-/high-power 1x12"/1x15"/2x12"/4x10" tube combo...

Plugged into the low-gain input of just such an amp - or one of their cleaner solid-state contemporaries/successors ("orange" or "grey-stripe" pre-1985 Randall RG/RB-120, '80s Peavey Bandit 65/Special 130/Renown, certain Roland JC combos, final-generation Fender Frontman 65R/212R, etc.) - they sound exactly as they were intended: a loud "acoustic" guitar, if not exactly a prewar D-28; the characteristic "American speaker" midrange EQ and rolloff over ~5kHz rein in the nasties, and IME if you add just enough 'verb/chorus/delay to give the tone some "air" the acoustic effect becomes even more convincing...

Run a typical UST through the "house system" most of us would find on a typical weekend gig - or a modern A/E amp - and you'll be fighting off the entire army of well-known piezo gremlins that passes for "acoustic-electric" tone...

Listen to Neil Diamond's miked-amp rhythm guitar on the first Hot August Night album versus Paul Simon's direct-to-board Concert in Central Park of a decade later - both men were using first-generation deep-body Ovations - and you'll hear exactly what I mean...

Bottom line: Newer tech ain't necessarily better - and if it ain't broke don't go messin' with it...
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  #27  
Old 01-10-2022, 02:28 PM
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I wonder if players who play BOTH electric and acoustic don’t mind it due to be used to an amplified sound. I’ve always been an acoustic player and 1 year with a Taylor T5 let me know, I didn’t need an electric. Also, being a fiddle player probably has something to do with acoustic music tone and my ears.
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  #28  
Old 01-10-2022, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
Sometimes, you actually need a touch of that "icepick" to break through, especially when you are competing with other instruments. The attack is often what makes the sound, and a piezo pickup actually gives you that. Used judiciously, it can be a benefit, believe it or not.
This is why on the whole I'm happy with my current Tonedexter setting, which isn't really My Guitar But Louder, but is a very pleasant, somewhat electric-y sound without any quack. Output is from a Sonitone.
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  #29  
Old 01-10-2022, 02:43 PM
Tnfiddler Tnfiddler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscom View Post
This is why on the whole I'm happy with my current Tonedexter setting, which isn't really My Guitar But Louder, but is a very pleasant, somewhat electric-y sound without any quack. Output is from a Sonitone.

I was able to take quack out of my K&K equipped D41 with my Boss AD2 running into my Ultrasound DI plus. Ambience on the AD2 at the 2 o’clock setting and Resonance at 3 o’clock and it was super warm and clean.
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  #30  
Old 01-10-2022, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tnfiddler View Post
I was able to take quack out of my K&K equipped D41 with my Boss AD2 running into my Ultrasound DI plus. Ambience on the AD2 at the 2 o’clock setting and Resonance at 3 o’clock and it was super warm and clean.
I like my Boss AD-2, and the same functionality is part of the Boss VE-8; the latter is something I use alot. But mainly for vocals now. While the AD-2 definitely improved my Sonitone-driven guitars, I still found it lacking, even with extra tweaking via a Tonematch. Who knows, I might have had better luck with your pedal!
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