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  #16  
Old 01-15-2022, 09:47 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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FYI: I managed to extract the Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2 from the Martin D-18 with only a small divot being pulled out of the bottom of one of the feet. This is a typical occurrence when removing the printed HFN base from an installation when it was installed using the provided 3M tape strip. A bit of sanding of the three-footed base on a flat surface will even everything up for another trial of this Schatten system in another guitar sometime later on.
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  #17  
Old 03-04-2022, 02:21 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Today, I was sanding down the feet of the Schatten HFN printed base to remove the divot that was taken out of the bottom of one of the feet when I removed it from the Martin D-18. This opened up a hollow pocket in the middle foot of the printed base. No big deal as this gave me an excuse to remove the brass enclosed piezo pickup element from the HFN printed base. It was easily removed by prying away the printed base at one end and inserting a smooth knife blade between the brass and the printed base and pressing down along the length of the pickup until the base was removed. I cleaned up the residual adhesive on the brass enclosure with some acetone. The brass-enclosed piezo element is now ready to install in another guitar. Will it give satisfactory tonal results without its three-footed base? I think it will and I have three more 3M adhesive strips with which to install the pickup element in another guitar should I choose to do so. More to come ...
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-04-2022 at 03:14 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-04-2022, 03:01 PM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Please send pictures!!!

what is in the brass element?

did you measure the capacitance of the sensor?
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  #19  
Old 03-05-2022, 01:50 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Hi Cuki,

I don't know the capacitance or the impedance of the sensor. I'm assuming its output needs to mate with a high-impedance input which is taken care of within the endpin preamp.

As you can see from the photo, the sensor housing is a rectangular brass tube into which the lead wire goes at one end. Note the two dots on the surface of the tube that mates with the top of the three-footed HFN base. Are these two small metallic-colored dots the piezo elements for the system? Hard to believe that they may be! Maybe the piezo sensor is actually a longer element and the two visible dots are for maintaining its location within the tube?

I've also shown the bottom of the HFN base to show the air pocket my sanding of the base revealed. I'm not a fan of how the 3-D printing renders air pockets in the base as I'd prefer the base to be solid and free of air pockets. Do these air pockets affect the vibrational transfer from the bridgeplate to the piezo sensors? Maybe and maybe not. The sensor tube could be adhered to a modified 5-string banjo bridge which in effect would harken back to the wooden HFN base days of the original HFN pickup.

I haven't tried the sensor in a guitar but may do so by first trying it with a supplied 3M foam strip under the line of the saddle. The Schatten Artist Plus 2 system is neat in that a second pickup source can be soldered to Channel 2 in the endpin/preamp/jack and the volume of both sensors can be controlled by the dual-volume-control soundhole module. The system can be powered by an onboard 9-volt battery or by 48-volt phantom power. This makes it a system I want to play around with some more in the future!

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Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-06-2022 at 09:52 AM.
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  #20  
Old 03-05-2022, 02:11 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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I am excited to see more with regards to this experiment. All I know is that, that rectangle strip is the same exact one that’s used on their mandolin/bouzouki models and it sounds great. In those, the strip is attached to the backside of the saddle/bridge and the tone is remarkably mic-like. What I think will happen is you will get a large tone with more volume but more piezo tonality present. I think there’s a reason why Schatten added the base. With that said, even if it sounds a bit more like a pickup, it could be an awesome option vs the superglued SBT pickups out there.

I have a few HFN pickups. One came with a damaged base that they just let me keep. I should try this experiment on my guitar as well. I too think their blended option with two pickups and volume controls for each but with a mono output is pretty awesome.
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  #21  
Old 03-05-2022, 02:43 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I am excited to see more with regards to this experiment. All I know is that, that rectangle strip is the same exact one that’s used on their mandolin/bouzouki models and it sounds great. In those, the strip is attached to the backside of the saddle/bridge and the tone is remarkably mic-like. What I think will happen is you will get a large tone with more volume but more piezo tonality present. I think there’s a reason why Schatten added the base. With that said, even if it sounds a bit more like a pickup, it could be an awesome option vs the superglued SBT pickups out there.

I have a few HFN pickups. One came with a damaged base that they just let me keep. I should try this experiment on my guitar as well. I too think their blended option with two pickups and volume controls for each but with a mono output is pretty awesome.
Thanks, Scott for your experience with the Schatten HFN!

I think you're correct in feeling that the bare sensor mounted on the bridgeplate would yield more gain but have more piezo artifacts in its amplified tone. What's neat is that the Artist 2 system could be mated with a Schatten UST with the bare HFN sensor mounted elsewhere on the bridgeplate, maybe behind the bridgepins? The two pickups could then be blended into a nicely resonant mix via the soundhole dual-volume-control module. The possibilities are many for this system in that a Schatten Insider SBT could be also be used as one of the two sensor elements for the system. How about a Shadow NanoMag in one of the channels? As long as I'd have enough different pickups, 3M tape, and patience, the Artist Plus 2 system presents many options!

By the way, do you know what "HFN" stands for?
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  #22  
Old 03-05-2022, 04:14 PM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Thanks Ken for your feedback!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Note the two dots on the surface of the tube that mates with the top of the three-footed HFN base. Are These two small metallic-colored dots the piezo elements for the system? Hard to believe that they may be! Maybe the piezo sensor is actually a longer element and the two visible dots are for maintaining its location within the tube?
I agree the piezo element is inside. The brass is probably here for shielding and ground.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
I've also shown the bottom of the HFN base to show the air pocket my sanding of the base revealed. I'm not a fan of how the 3-D printing renders air pockets in the base as I'd prefer the base to be solid and free of air pockets. Do these air pockets affect the vibrational transfer from the bridgeplate to the piezo sensors?
Air pockets are normal for 3-D printing. It makes the structure lighter and faster to print. Since the Piezo element is probably working in bending mode. How the feet actually couples to the brass box is important. I guess they made trial and error on how much the feet are filled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
I haven't tried the sensor in a guitar but may do so by first trying it with a supplied 3M foam strip under the line of the saddle.
Good idea but don't use super glue. My test with rigid long sensors is that it does not work. You need some flexibility.
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  #23  
Old 03-05-2022, 04:53 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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I just ordered a Schatten HFN Active Under-bridge Guitar Pickup w/Preamp from Blue Star Music (the passive mode was not in-stock). I will extract the HFN pickup from the preamp and solder it to Channel 2 of my Artist II Plus 2 preamp and affix it under the saddle line (normal position) and attach the naked HFN sensor to either the rear of the bridgeplate behind the bridgepins or directly on the guitar's top just off the rear of the bridgeplate. Both pickups will be mounted with the included 3M VHB tape.
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  #24  
Old 03-05-2022, 07:57 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
I just ordered a Schatten HFN Active Under-bridge Guitar Pickup w/Preamp from Blue Star Music (the passive mode was not in-stock). I will extract the HFN pickup from the preamp and solder it to Channel 2 of my Artist II Plus 2 preamp and affix it under the saddle line (normal position) and attach the naked HFN sensor to either the rear of the bridgeplate behind the bridgepins or directly on the guitar's top just off the rear of the bridgeplate. Both pickups will be mounted with the included 3M VHB tape.
I am loving these experiments! You mentioned above about a potential UST/HFN setup. That's kind of what I have wanted to try for years. Lr Baggs has the Imix, but it seems like a fairly complicated set up. I just like the immediate attack of aa UST, but the warmth and natural tone of a SBT. Apply a bit of Tonedexter and it could be a great set up.

My wife is going to her parents for a bit tomorrow, so if I get a chance, I might try applying the bare HFN transducer (without the base) to the inside of my guitar using putty. I have one for my mandolin that is already soldered to a jack. If I get a chance to do it, I will report back.
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  #25  
Old 03-06-2022, 09:48 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I am loving these experiments! You mentioned above about a potential UST/HFN setup. That's kind of what I have wanted to try for years. Lr Baggs has the Imix, but it seems like a fairly complicated set up. I just like the immediate attack of aa UST, but the warmth and natural tone of a SBT. Apply a bit of Tonedexter and it could be a great set up.

My wife is going to her parents for a bit tomorrow, so if I get a chance, I might try applying the bare HFN transducer (without the base) to the inside of my guitar using putty. I have one for my mandolin that is already soldered to a jack. If I get a chance to do it, I will report back.
I'm looking forward to any insight and/or demos you can share with us with your naked HFN in guitar experience!

I decided to go with a dual HFN setup instead of adding the UST to the system so I don't have to shave my bridgesaddle.

The Ultra Tonic 3.2 is due to arrive tomorrow, Monday, and I'll try to install it next weekend in my Larrivee D-03 Sunburst.

The Schatten dual HFN rig will likely go into my Huss & Dalton TD-R (or another new guitar that I may soon buy) as I don't want to use any glue in the H&D. I've been thinking that I'll initially install the naked HFN sensor on the bridgeplate and just off and along the bass leg of the X-brace. This, I'm hoping, will enable more bass response to be mixed in with the normal HFN's under the saddle line signal. I think the dual-channel mix of these two HFN pickups will yield strong bass along with clarity across the tonal spectrum. If not, it's a simple matter to relocate the naked HFN to another position to try again.
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Martin D-18/Ultra Tonic
Guild F-212XL STD
Adamas I 2087GT-8
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Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee D-03R Sunburst/Ultra Tonic
Larrivee D-40M Legacy/Dazzo
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  #26  
Old 03-06-2022, 12:58 PM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Ken you really need to try my new algorithm. Do you have a Helix or HX stomp? Can you borrow one from a friend?
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  #27  
Old 03-06-2022, 07:51 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
I'm looking forward to any insight and/or demos you can share with us with your naked HFN in guitar experience!

I decided to go with a dual HFN setup instead of adding the UST to the system so I don't have to shave my bridgesaddle.

The Ultra Tonic 3.2 is due to arrive tomorrow, Monday, and I'll try to install it next weekend in my Larrivee D-03 Sunburst.

The Schatten dual HFN rig will likely go into my Huss & Dalton TD-R (or another new guitar that I may soon buy) as I don't want to use any glue in the H&D. I've been thinking that I'll initially install the naked HFN sensor on the bridgeplate and just off and along the bass leg of the X-brace. This, I'm hoping, will enable more bass response to be mixed in with the normal HFN's under the saddle line signal. I think the dual-channel mix of these two HFN pickups will yield strong bass along with clarity across the tonal spectrum. If not, it's a simple matter to relocate the naked HFN to another position to try again.
The dual HFN would be a cool idea. I considered it at one point as well! I am very, very tempted to give the Lr Baggs Imix a try. It's a pickup that gets virtually no discussion here, but one that I have heard live and have been very impressed with. We shall see. I like installing pickups myself, but the ibeam can be a bit of a pain and there's a lot to this system.
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  #28  
Old 03-07-2022, 05:06 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
Ken you really need to try my new algorithm. Do you have a Helix or HX stomp? Can you borrow one from a friend?
Hi Cuki, I don't have either, and I don't know anyone with one but I may buy one of these someday. What's the least costly but good-quality pedal/device out there that I can use to load your algorithm? Your algorithm sounded great! Thanks!
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Larrivee D-40M Legacy/Dazzo
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-07-2022 at 05:18 PM.
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  #29  
Old 03-08-2022, 12:17 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Hi Cuki, I don't have either, and I don't know anyone with one but I may buy one of these someday. What's the least costly but good-quality pedal/device out there that I can use to load your algorithm? Your algorithm sounded great! Thanks!
Honestly a second hand HX stomp… the rest is more DIY.
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