Good Martins & Gibsons VS boutique luthiers: are they comparable?

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by s2y

If you're gonna imply it, please own it with pride.

You implied that there were 2 possible scenarios. One was a "boutique" guitarist with an average guitar vs. an average player with a boutique guitar. This implies that the boutique players are lesser. Crafty, but far from the first time I have heard this. Won't be the last.

Total mischaracterization. Nothing implied. I said *I* would rather be...and never came remotely close to suggesting someone with a fine guitar couldn't play.

Feel free to decide how you want to apply it to you.

hunter

[s2y]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Total mischaracterization. Nothing implied. I said *I* would rather be...and never came remotely close to suggesting someone with a fine guitar couldn't play.

Feel free to decide how you want to apply it to you.

hunter

Then why make the original statement in the first place?

[Manothemtns]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

For whatever reason, I don't seem to have difficulty adapting to different necks, nut widths, and string spacing. My only concern was what these guitars sounded like. They all sounded good.

The problem for me, living way out in the sticks is that I have extremely limited choice if I am not willing to buy guitars long distance. It has worked out for me; it may not work out for everyone. But if you are not willing to purchase a guitar long distance, then you are stuck with only what you have within your driving distance limits unless you want to hop on an airplane. I considered that and realized the cost of airfare back and forth was way more than the shipping and credit card costs.

- Glenn

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

For whatever reason, I don't seem to have difficulty adapting to different necks, nut widths, and string spacing. My only concern was what these guitars sounded like. They all sounded good.

The problem for me, living way out in the sticks is that I have extremely limited choice if I am not willing to buy guitars long distance. It has worked out for me; it may not work out for everyone. But if you are not willing to purchase a guitar long distance, then you are stuck with only what you have within your driving distance limits unless you want to hop on an airplane. I considered that and realized the cost of airfare back and forth was way more than the shipping and credit card costs.

- Glenn

I, too, live in a very rural area and struggle with with the inability to play guitars before I buy them. That said, I've become quite adept at doing so (buying without playing) and, as an example, would buy (I'm considering it now but am already at my limit) the pictured Gibson in a heartbeat. I've learned the ins and outs of buying online and first and foremost, that means I know my guitars and know them well. It's taken me years to gain the knowledge I now apply every time I buy a guitar, be it in person or remotely and sight unseen. The example guitar is currently for sale on Reverb and is listed by a well known purveyor of guitars and a shop I've done business with before. Though I've never needed to return a guitar, prominent shops like this one, the Music Zoo in Roslyn, New York, have a robust return policy allowing for return for any reason within a 30-day period. While having not played the guitar, I've played many such J-45's with virtually identical build specifications and, aside from what others might say, the boys in Bozeman (Gibson's acoustic guitar custom shop) seldom put out a dog or any guitar that isn't worth the associated price tag...relative to both it's primary (Martin, Taylor) and secondary (Collings, SCGC, Bourgeois et al) competition.

I just grabbed a pic of this particular guitar to make an argument for the primary builders and the comparative value they hold over "boutique" builds at three times the price. At $2,600, gently used, I see nothing this guitar wouldn't give me but smile upon smile for years to come. I've not played it but would gladly pull the trigger if I was currently "on the hunt" and the "hunt" itself would have been loads of fun! On the gently used market (there's a massive surplus of guitars of all kinds flooding the market as I type this...a wonderfully complex and separate topic in its own right) this guitar can be had for roughly 60% of its original sales price...right around $4,000. To me, it's all the guitar I would ever need or want...at least for the time being![emoji39] I have no need for it to read Collings, Bourgeois, or Huss and Dalton, and on, and on, on the headstock and would be smiling all the way to the bank with my freshly slain bargain! (Asking price is $2,599...which means it could be had for $2,300, easy).

[Manothemtns]

Originally Posted by Manothemtns

I, too, live in a very rural area and struggle with with the inability to play guitars before I buy them. That said, I've become quite adept at doing so (buying without playing) and, as an example, would buy (I'm considering it now but am already at my limit) the pictured Gibson in a heartbeat. I've learned the ins and outs of buying online and first and foremost, that means I know my guitars and know them well. It's taken me years to gain the knowledge I now apply every time I buy a guitar, be it in person or remotely and sight unseen. The example guitar is currently for sale on Reverb and is listed by a well known purveyor of guitars and a shop I've done business with before. Though I've never needed to return a guitar, prominent shops like this one, the Music Zoo in Roslyn, New York, have a robust return policy allowing for return for any reason within a 30-day period. While having not played the guitar, I've played many such J-45's with virtually identical build specifications and, aside from what others might say, the boys in Bozeman (Gibson's acoustic guitar custom shop) seldom put out a dog or any guitar that isn't worth the associated price tag...relative to both it's primary (Martin, Taylor) and secondary (Collings, SCGC, Bourgeois et al) competition.

I just grabbed a pic of this particular guitar to make an argument for the primary builders and the comparative value they hold over "boutique" builds at three times the price. At $2,600, gently used, I see nothing this guitar wouldn't give me but smile upon smile for years to come. I've not played it but would gladly pull the trigger if I was currently "on the hunt" and the "hunt" itself would have been loads of fun! On the gently used market (there's a massive surplus of guitars of all kinds flooding the market as I type this...a wonderfully complex and separate topic in its own right) this guitar can be had for roughly 60% of its original sales price...right around $4,000. To me, it's all the guitar I would ever need or want...at least for the time being![emoji39] I have no need for it to read Collings, Bourgeois, or Huss and Dalton, and on, and on, on the headstock and would be smiling all the way to the bank with my freshly slain bargain! (Asking price is $2,599...which means it could be had for $2,300, easy).

Looks like my jpeg didn't attach which is really too bad as the comment was written around the pictorial example.

Suffice it to say the pic was typical of the extraordinarily gorgeously hand-built Gibson acoustics available on the secondary (used) market today. Bankruptcy filings aside, there are hundreds of gently used Gibson slope shoulder guitars out there for 60% of the original sales price. The same holds for mid-to-upper end Martin's. For reasons too extensive to go into on this thread, it's a buyer's market right now and has been since the third quarter of 2016. Tons of beautiful guitars can be had at deeply discounted prices. The catch is that an individual has to be willing to make these purchases online. You won't find these prices at your local guitar shop (another rangy topic). I buy from my favorite brick and mortar whenever I can and will pay a certain premium to spend locally. Beyond that premium, I'll buy online. I don't wish to see 50 year old brick and mortar shops go under in this buyer's market. Anyway, peace. Whatever your guitar denomination, we're all members of the same brotherhood. That's why I recently joined AGF!

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Manothemtns

Suffice it to say the pic was typical of the extraordinarily gorgeously hand-built Gibson acoustics available on the secondary (used) market today.

Bozeman Gibsons are not hand built. They are still a factory guitar built to a spec. Don't confuse a "custom shop" with hand-building. Back in the first few pages of this thread I describe the difference.

Nothing against Gibson, by the way.

[Manothemtns]

There's little difference between Collings "production" and Gibson Bozeman "production". They both use a combination of hand and factory processing. The only true "hand-built" luthieries are very small, putting out fewer than 50 guitars per year, at best. In that basis, I can't illustrate my commentary any better than I did.

[Tnfiddler]

I think that MAYBE one reason people buy boutique builder guitars is to have individuality. Instead of having the Martin, Gibson, Taylor or Yamaha that everyone else has, you have your smaller luthier build. I said it earlier in this thread that I've had Taylors with as nice of fit/finish as my Bourgeois, but none have had the tone. I've NEVER had a single person ask me anything, or compliment my Taylor dread at a bluegrass festival(unless they played it first). I can't tell you how many people asked me about the Bourgeois and complimented the sound of it at SPBGMA. When you see that unique build or one you've never seen, you want to find out about it, or at least I know that I do.

[Brent Nelson]

Have owned many many of both. Your answer is "yes."

[tadol]

Its hard to explain to anyone who’s pre-decided they don’t need a hand built guitar the small but significant differences in tone and fit you can hear and feel when comparing it to a factory built instrument. As a friend of Bruce Sexauers’, and also a friend of Richard Hoover, I’ve had the chance to spend a lot of time with incredible guitars and a very wide range of guitarists (note: I put myself as one of the least talented in that lot) and there are a number of things I’ve found. When sitting at a table, displaying guitars that might start at $8,000 but could just as easily be over $15,000, you offer to let someone play one, and you get a few standard reactions - first - no, I’m just looking - second - no, I can’t afford it - and third - no, I’m not a good enough player. To which, I can only respond, Why? First, as beautiful as guitars are, their primary function is not just to look good. Second - well, yes, some of these guitars are out of definitely out of the average players budget, but the whole reason you go to a show and read threads like this is because you want to know the differences, and even if you can’t afford to buy one at that moment, you are being offered an opportunity to hold, and feel, and hear, a first-class instrument - an opportunity that does not come along all that often. And Third - who cares how well you play? There are some great singer/songwriters that probably know only a handful of chords in the first position, but that doesn’t make their music any less enjoyable. If you enjoy playing, you can only grow in your understanding of the instrument by trying out different ones.

So many times you read how someone might play 3, or 10, or 20 of a certain factory made model, in order to find the one that sounds good and doesn’t have issues. When a factory is pumping out 20, or 50, or 200 guitars per day, they cannot produce the same quality instrument as a small shop that makes 20 to 30 guitars a month, or the single builder who makes 1 or 2 per month.

There’s no doubt that the quality of factory built instruments has vastly improved in the last 40 years, and I personally believe that the “golden era” instruments that are the standards we hold dear are the survivors, and that many of them survived because they were the better ones built at the time, and then add 60 to 80 years of age and playing (and repairs and adjustments), and they do get better.

So to the OPs question - Yes, a good Martin or Gibson is comparable to a boutique builder, but the emphasis is - you have to find a GOOD one, and its comparable to probably any guitar from a boutique builder, and importantly, comparable does NOT mean better - just sufficient to allow a comparison. But I still recommend trying out as many guitars as you can, so you can really understand what that comparison is - you may discover that even though it is a bit more expensive, a boutique shop or solo luthier guitar may be the one that inspires you and helps you become the better musician - or not -

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Manothemtns

There's little difference between Collings "production" and Gibson Bozeman "production". They both use a combination of hand and factory processing. The only true "hand-built" luthieries are very small, putting out fewer than 50 guitars per year, at best. In that basis, I can't illustrate my commentary any better than I did.

Does Gibson individually voice their top?

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Does Gibson individually voice their top?

They did on the some of the higher line stuff during the Ren Ferguson era...I don't know about now

But...

Luthier extraordinaire James Olson does not individually voice is tops per se' either. He had developed a set of specs for his SJ model that he uses, and he builds to those specs with very slight adjustments. There was a thread from last year where one of our members was interested in having Mr. Olson build a guitar for him, and asked if he would voice it to have a tone similar to an SJ that he...the AGF member...had heard and had really really liked. James told him that he does not individually voice his tops and whatever difference he heard in that guitar was due to the inherent natural differences in the wood that each guitar was made from.

Here is the quote from the members Custom Shop thread. He ultimately had T. Drew Heinonen make him a guitar, as Drew said he would voice it to the members wishes for tone based on what he had heard in that SJ:

I couldn't plunk down 20k+ for it, so I contacted Jim Olson to see if he would build an EIR and asked if he could get that sound again by any chance. The answers were no for now (only BRW was a for sure yes) and maybe. With the latter, he didn't do anything different voicing wise--his bracing was fairly standard and created the general Olson sound, and then he let each piece of wood be the difference.

The famed Martins of the 30's and 40's were not tap tuned, or specifically voiced in any manner...they were just built to spec...but...depending on which craftsman was doing top and bracing on a given run of guitars, and just with the hand work in general...there were individual differences created in the tone...guitar to guitar...but they were still very similar overall.

Tap tuning/voicing does not absolutely guarantee a better sounding guitar. It may improve the chances, but it is not a guarantee.

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Manothemtns]

For the record, I'm not pro-huge-megalithic corporation and favor luthiers everywhere. I've been to Collings and to Gibson. I own small brands and big brands alike and I believe my collection speaks for itself.

My view is what you may call circumspect and is backed up by personal experience. I happen to be a retired engineer but I have close friends who are luthiers. They're not household names...yet, and each knows that once I'm confident their lacquer work, while stunning, will stand the test of some time, I'll be first in line. We're friends. If they can handle that sort of pragmatism I would hope you have no trouble in doing same. This is how I believe you sustain a guitar collection...by learning where and when to buy...making informed, intelligent decisions. Be good. Take care, bye.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Manothemtns

I was trying to get the thread back on track .....

That's a common mistake. There rarely is only one track. Given the OP nine pages back, this thread could have gone anywhere.

But you do have to wonder why there has to be an arbitrary line drawn between big and small somewhere along a rather messy continuum of production methods.

[Manothemtns]

Originally Posted by zmf

That's a common mistake. There rarely is only one track. Given the OP nine pages back, this thread could have gone anywhere.

But you do have to wonder why there has to be an arbitrary line drawn between big and small somewhere along a rather messy continuum of production methods.

I'm new to the forum but an old hat at life. There was some level of abrasive correspondence going on so I went back and reread the OP and the entire thread and (thought I) took it back to what I believed was the root question. I enjoy good debate but when things start getting off track and begin to deteriorate I've always believed trying to get back on track is the best remedy. I could have simply walked away but I believe the thread had merit and tried to breathe new life into it. Thing is, it seems I errantly stepped on a toe or two while doing so. If that is the case it was completely unintentional. So, I'll let the chips fall where they may and attempt to back out gracefully...if that is possible and, if it isn't, it outta be.

Even the most well-defined question has a way of attracting a cornucopia of answers.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Manothemtns

.... but I believe the thread had merit and tried to breathe new life into it. Thing is, it seems I errantly stepped on a toe or two while doing so.

Personally, I've enjoyed it from the historical perspective in terms of guitar making. Group A doesn't tone tap, and Group B taps, but a few individuals in Group A might take 10 seconds to tap just out of curiosity, if nothing else, while some in Group B tend to build to spec. Some sneak in a tap and spend an extra few minutes to take a little more off the bracing.

Regarding stepping on toes, forums are full of toes hanging out there waiting.