K&K experience. Not sure I like it.

[El Conquistador]

In an attempt to simplify my giging life, I recently purchased a giging guitar. The idea was to install a pickup in it that I could just plug into instead of mounting a soundhole pickup. I found a good used OMPW in the classifieds here that is really well balanced and sounds reat. Then, after a great deal of research on forums like this and UMGF etc, I settled on the K&K Pure Western for its simplicity and reported excellent performance. I am running it through a Fishman SoloAmp that I have used for a couple of years with excellent results

I picked up the OMPW from the tech yesterday and giged with it last night. I've got to say, I was pretty disapointed. The highs are so thin as to be almost absent. I had the bass EQed down to 9:00 Oclock with the mids and highs all the way up to 3:00 Oclock and it still was mostly bass. I asked a regular patron who plays some guitar himself what he thought of the sound and he said that is just sounded fuzzy, hard to distinguish the notes.

What am I doing wrong? The signal is plenty hot and the caple I am using is a 10 footer, so, I should theoretically not need a DI box to make this thing sound good.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
LC

P.S. I just noticed another thread where a guy thought his SoloAmp could duplicate the Eq from his preamp but discovered the use of his pre-amp made a "massive" difference. What say you Min?

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

.....What am I doing wrong? .......

It sounds like you installed the K&K pure Western and not the Pure Western Mini. The mini is balanced. The standard is a miserable unit that has way too much bass.
Take it out and install a mini. It is a nice PU.
Sorry about you trouble!

[min7b5]

When I’m not just using a mic, I’m using the K&K equipped SCGC into a Soloamp as well. Assuming it was installed correctly, you should be able to get a decent pickup sound. Firstly, I can’t overstate how helpful it is to have extra EQ between the guitar and Soloamp, or any amp. The little MXR 6 band EQ I use is simple, runs on a battery, and expensive, I would not leave the house without it. Other will recommend getting a preamp. I’ve used the K&K with the Baggs, two different K&K pres, a Dtar pre,etc. The little graphis pdeal is night and day better for tone shaping in my expeience. Unless you’re running long lines, I don;t think the buffing aspect of a acsoutic preamp makes much difference.

As will all pickups, the K&K has multiple problem frequencies. It’s simply not possible to address all of them with any amp that has just bass, mid, and treble controls (still don’t know what any of these acoustic amps don;t have a built in fifteen band graphic in them....) . One of the problem spots for sure is 1.2khz, and luckily the Soloamp’s (as well as the rest of Loudbox line) mid pot is 1.2. I would be cutting that for sure. So you having that at 3 o’clock is likely a problem. It also probably needs a boost in the highs. The soloamps 10K pot is good for that, though I think you’ll want to boost around 4 or 5K too... Rolling the Soloamp’s bass (100hz, I think) is also a must. But again, have additional eq so you can cut at 400 or 500 would be a huge plus.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by SteveS

It sounds like you installed the K&K pure Western and not the Pure Western Mini. The mini is balanced. The standard is a miserable unit that has way too much bass.
Take it out and install a mini...!

I agree with that for sure

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

What am I doing wrong? The signal is plenty hot and the caple I am using is a 10 footer, so, I should theoretically not need a DI box to make this thing sound good. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
LC

I went with K&K Pure Western mini in my D-18GE, based on all the glowing reviews. I was VERY disappointed (there's an old thread here on AGF). I HATED my PWM until I mated it to a K&K preamp. I already owned a Baggs ParaDI, and according to what I read here I should have been ecstatic. BUT it didn't get me the tone that others raved about. I resisted spending more $$$, and thought to cut my losses and peel the K&K off the bridge plate and chuck it. Instead I finally got the K&K preamp it was like night and day, so much so that I installed another PWM in my Guild 12-string.

I opted for the Pure Preamp (not the Pure XLR) because I usually run a short cable to the mixer 1/4" input, and I prefer the smaller belt loop mounting. When running to a remote mixer I just insert a DI between the preamp and the mixer. The Pure XLR adds phase shift, XLR DI but is bigger.

BTW - K&K is only marketing the Pure Mini these days, and doesn't offer the older version on their website. I experienced the same tone issues as the OP ... thin highs, boomy muddy bass ... all cured when I got the K&K preamp.

[HudsDad]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

I experienced the same tone issues as the OP ... thin highs, boomy muddy bass ... all cured when I got the K&K preamp.

Same here. I have the PWM in my Larrivee and the tone is quite mediocre if I plug straight into the amp (AG30). However, the Pure preamp cleans everything up nicely and it sounds beautiful when I plug in that little box. Very much a night/day difference, in my experience.

[alohachris]

Aloha El,

As I've said over and over, and was reduxed above indirectly by Min & Steve, the terms "SIMPLICITY" and "SUCCESSFUL ACOUSTIC AMPLIFICATION" of the guitar tend to be exclusive of one another.

Here are the key facts as I've experienced them:

- No matter what you play through, you need GREAT EQ to be able to apply any pickup system successfully in a variety of venues (which the SA does NOT provide),

- No single pickup of any design - even the K&K mini - sounds very good or natural when used alone in different kinds of professional settings especially without a preamp, which leads me too this,

- Dual (or more) pickup systems PLUS great EQ will give you the best chance for consistently good tone, room & feedback control, better headroom, a chance to be heard, flexibility of routing, more natural sound & FREEDOM FROM EAR FATIGUE.

I really don't like ANY pickup alone. YOU NEED A DUAL PICKUP SYSTEM & GREAT EQ, EL!

Min and I really prefer lots of mic - all mic if we can - in our LIVE mixes. It's the simplest and truest to your guitar's natural sound amplification. However, to control that kind of live amplification really requires better EQ.

The reality is you need a pickup to be heard gigging much of the time. So, I use my preamp to EQ the natural upper mid's & trebles from my internal mic, & get the lower mid's and bass out of the K&K mini. Blend, sum and get what I need. I love the K&K mini in almost ALL dual+ pickup combos. A winner.

Rarely, I add a Duncan Magmic to that dual source mix in loud or band situations - to be heard. More these days, I will add an external mic to my dual source in quieter settings for the most natural sound amplification I can get.

Those combos of tools give me the control I need in a variety of musical settings/crowds and solo or band configurations.

So my suggestion would be to slightly adjust your definition of "simplificity" in live amplification and to definitely add another source or two to the K&K.

Add better external EQ with something like Min's MXR EQ (a great little unit) for control of a single pickup like your K&K.

People also find that using one of K&K's impedance-matching two channel, blending preamps for their dual source Trinity System (recommended), or better ones like the DTAR Solstice, or a small mixer like the A&H ZED FX10 and its great EQ can provide the blending, EQ'ing, mixing and summing you need to get the best sound through your SA.

It's not about simplicity, EL. It's about what works and being prepared with the right combo of amplification tools in a planned compatible signal chain for a variety of settings. And a single K&K PW pickup just aint gonna work alone very well in any venue but a living room, in my experience, without the rest of the necessary elements.

If you're determined to stick with the single K&K PW, then try adding an external K&K preamp or small mixer, w/ a decent external EQ as mentioned, and an external mic. That could help you dial in some very good sound through your SA.

As Rusty said, the bottom line on the K&K is that it just works better through a preamp or good mixer. "Theoretically," you shouldn't need a DI or preamp. The reality - in my experience - is that you really do need it - even with the SA's controls.

Good luck with tweaking it, El.

alohachris

[min7b5]

I definitely didn’t have the same experience as others with the K&K Pure Pre, but everyone is different, and we’re all using different guitars, etc. Could be because the K&K Pure’s three tone controls are exactly the same as the Fishman Soloamp and Loudbox, so obviously having redundant eq certainly wasn’t doing much. I could see if someone was using, say, the Compact 60, where the mid control is 500hz, the K&K Pure Pre’s 1.2Khz mid control would be bringing something new to the party and thus the user would perceive that as a big improvement. I didn't hear anything.

Originally Posted by alohachris

...
- No matter what you play through, you need GREAT EQ to be able to apply any pickup system successfully in a variety of venues (which the SA does NOT provide)....

I totally agree with Chris, you absolutly need great EQ, or at least more EQ, and almost all acoustic amps just don't have it. However for someone like me that can do most of my gigs with just a mic (with the amp’s eq run totally flat), the Soloamp is just wonderful as a plug and play system.

[El Conquistador]

Thanks for all the great responses guys. This is the Mini, BTW Steve.

When I first started giging again about a year ago, I went with a mic only. Feedback issues simply made that too much of a pain. That's why I went with internal amplification to begin with.

The strange thing is that I was getting pretty darn good sound out of my Fishman Rare Earth Dual Source plugged straight into the SoloAmp. I just got tired of putting it in and taking it out and having that bar where I fingerpick and having the cord running down the guitar. So I am very surprised that the K&K needs addtitional fire power in the form of extra EQ.

I am willing to do what it takes to get a decent sound out of my SCGC OMPM. But, I must confess that I am now slighlty confused by some of the jargon here. I guess I am not sure I understand the difference between a pre-amp and an EQ and what problems they solve. As I said, the signal is plenty hot.

Min, you and I are the closest in equipment. We are both using a SCGC guitar and SoloAmp. Are you saying the the K&K Pure XLR or Pure Pre-amp are rendered un-neccesary by the SoloAmp's EQ's? If so, should I just get an EQ like yours?

Huds Dad and Rusy, what amps or PAs are you guys going through? You guys have said that a K&K Pure pre-amp solved all your problems, so, that is pretty powerful sounding.

So, I am confused.
LC

LC

[66strummer]

The Pure preamp will warm up the sound but it's not going to change the overall tone or get rid of excessive bass. This might not be the pickup for you....or you got a bad install (wrong placement of the transducers).

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by 66strummer

The Pure preamp will warm up the sound but it's not going to change the overall tone or get rid of excessive bass. This might not be the pickup for you....or you got a bad install (wrong placement of the transducers).

It was installed by the only K&K dealer within 100 miles. He said he had done several previously. That would be a bummer.
LC

[66strummer]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

It was installed by the only K&K dealer within 100 miles. He said he had done several previously. That would be a bummer.
LC

Then the placement is likely OK. I was just speculating. If 1 or more of the 3 transducers was placed too close to the bridge pins it could pick up excess noise or bass. It's easy enough to check the placement with a mirror through your sound hole. What pickup were you running with? It was a dual source? This might be why a single source pickup sounds thin to you. A lot of the K&K fans around here use the Trinity or add a mic to their K&K's to get fuller sound from them.

[HudsDad]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

Huds Dad and Rusy, what amps or PAs are you guys going through? You guys have said that a K&K Pure pre-amp solved all your problems, so, that is pretty powerful sounding.

So, I am confused.
LC

LC

I play primarily through an AG30. And contrary to the post above, the Pure preamp EQ does allow me to clean up the bass quite well.

[localguitarist]

Originally Posted by 66strummer

Then the placement is likely OK. I was just speculating. If 1 or more of the 3 transducers was placed too close to the bridge pins it could pick up excess noise or bass. It's easy enough to check the placement with a mirror through your sound hole. What pickup were you running with? It was a dual source? This might be why a single source pickup sounds thin to you. A lot of the K&K fans around here use the Trinity or add a mic to their K&K's to get fuller sound from them.

I'm adding the Meridian Mic for that very reason(minus the exessive bass), when it gets here I'll let you know how I like it. I have the PWM in both guitars. Neither had anything before. My dreadnought, a Guild mahogany, sounds down right haunting through the right PA with just the PWM(w/ onboard K&K pre). My Lowden had just the PWM(w/ onboard K&K pre) at first. They sounded as different as the guitars themselves. The whole point on the K&K concept, I think, is that they adapt to the guitars individual sound. That's why they are so popular. The midrange needs a lot of work on my lowden. Not as much on my guild. There is very little bass response on my Lowden. Tons of bass response on my guild.
I think placement is really important. It's just like mic placement. Does your guitar sound really bassy unplugged? If so, it may be your guitar has issues non-other did that the installer has dealt with. Careful how you define too much bass. If you mean boomy then an UST and a dual source pre my help. If you mean too loud then EQ is the way to go. Try running it through a graphic or parametric...oh wait "simplicity". hmm I hear you there. You should try a Baggs venue DI. I hear they are great. I have the ParaDI. I use it for going into large Pa's sometimes. Used lightly it works great. The venue DI is the newer version with more eq control, and notch filters, and a tuner. Really I'd get a hold of a K&K preamp first. On board single source are really simple(no extra gear), and you can install them so they're hidden. I'll try to post pics of my guild.
Question have you thought about the room's part in this? Are you wanting them to sound like a mic? cause they ultimately won't be the same.

[stephenT]

I've removed the K&K mini western pickups from two of my guitars. That's right,.... tried the trinity system the second time just to be certain. Had the K&K preamp both times.

Unlike many on this and other forums, I found the K&K unusable for my playing. Woofy and tubby on the mids, thin on the top end, horrible initial attack,....