Thinking about removing a K&K. Better alternative, or just add Ultra Tonic Upgrade?

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by aschroeder

My issue isn’t due to technique sine I get major feedback instantly even if I’m not playing (when I plug in direct). I also play mostly fingerstyle and I am not an aggressive strummer. The pickup is literally unusable without massive EQ.

Could it be due to a bad sensor? I purchased the guitar used and the K&K was already installed. I checked it with a mirror and the 3 sensor placement looks good.

The UltraTonic Conversion may be your best bet. The soldering may be a bit tricky but placement of the additional sensors may be easier than getting the long, thin Main Sensor of the UlraTonic 3.2 positioned properly before the superglue sets up. I used thin films of Henkel Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy on my UltraTonic 3.2 installation and it gave me ample time for sensor placement and locational adjustment. I've used thin films of Henkel Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy for my Trance Amulet M, *Dazzo, and UltraTonic 3.2 installations and I'm pleased with the results.

*Teddy Randazzo of Dazzo Pickups uses Henkel Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy as his recommended adhesive. This gave me the idea to try it with my UltraTonic 3.2 and Trance Amulet M installations with no regrets.

[aschroeder]

I wanted to post a quick update on this. I have a Boss GE-7 I previously used on my pedalboard, but I replaced it with a Boss EQ-200 so I could store multiple EQ settings for when I switch guitars during a set.

I added the Boss GE-7 to my chain to test out how it would affect the sound with the ability to further control the low end boominess. I ran through both Boss EQ pedals and then straight to my Bose PA. It sounds really good. Because my K&K has such an extreme amount of low end it needs additional EQ to cure it. One EQ preamp just didn't have enough to cure the problem. I did try this a few months back, but had less success due to my EQ settings.

I was planning to sell my GE-7 pedal, but this is essentially the same thing as adding the UltraTonic upgrade. I didn't really want to add another pedal to my board, but I also don't want to glue more sensors into my guitar for the UltraTonic upgrade. But in the meantime this is a solution to make the K&K usable. I'll admit it sounds much better than I expected, even without an IR added.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by aschroeder

I was planning to sell my GE-7 pedal, but this is essentially the same thing as adding the UltraTonic upgrade. .

Sort of. EQ'S fine if it solves your problem. The genius of the ultratonic solution is that since it uses the guitar's sound itself to cancel out boomy or feedback-prone frequencies, it's more dynamic. The more your top moves, the more of the frequency in question is fed into the feedback circuit. The EQ pedal just maintains a steady X db cut, while the Ultratonic feeds in a stronger phase-reversed signal to counter the increase. Probably a subtle difference, but a different mechanism. ToneDexter adds yet another different angle, where it analyzes the resonant frequency of your guitar and uses that, which is likely more precise and targeted than a graphic EQ that only has fixed broad frequency bands.

All just depends on what fits your needs. I often wonder why people who complain that K&Ks are too bassy don't just turn down the bass control on an EQ, and in this case, it seems like that has solved your problem.

[aschroeder]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Sort of. EQ'S fine if it solves your problem. The genius of the ultratonic solution is that since it uses the guitar's sound itself to cancel out boomy or feedback-prone frequencies, it's more dynamic.

The fact that it takes two EQ pedals for me to reduce the bass enough, it is definitely a band-aid solution. When I used a single EQ pedal and reduced all of the bass frequencies to zero it still was much too bassy and unusable at louder volumes. I'm still considering installing the UltraTonic upgrade to my K&K, but for the time being my double EQ pedal solution will work in the short term.

Once the new Tonedexter comes out, I may invest in that option. I'm currently using a NUX Optima Air for my IRs. The IR functionality works well, but the preamp on the Optima Air it isn't great. So I only use the IR function on the pedal and leave the preamp disengaged. The Tonedexter is much more expensive, but it is a far superior pedal for IRs and preamp.

[Marshall]

Removing a K&K (superglue) is an involved process if you want a good surface for another SBT. Therefore I'd seriously consider the Ultra Tonic add-on

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Marshall

Removing a K&K (superglue) is an involved process if you want a good surface for another SBT. Therefore I'd seriously consider the Ultra Tonic add-on

Hi M
Actually I've seen them removed (intact & still working) with a good luthier and his razor blade.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by aschroeder

I wanted to post a quick update on this. I have a Boss GE-7 I previously used on my pedalboard, but I replaced it with a Boss EQ-200 so I could store multiple EQ settings for when I switch guitars during a set.

I added the Boss GE-7 to my chain to test out how it would affect the sound with the ability to further control the low end boominess. I ran through both Boss EQ pedals and then straight to my Bose PA. It sounds really good. Because my K&K has such an extreme amount of low end it needs additional EQ to cure it. One EQ preamp just didn't have enough to cure the problem. I did try this a few months back, but had less success due to my EQ settings.

I was planning to sell my GE-7 pedal, but this is essentially the same thing as adding the UltraTonic upgrade. I didn't really want to add another pedal to my board, but I also don't want to glue more sensors into my guitar for the UltraTonic upgrade. But in the meantime this is a solution to make the K&K usable. I'll admit it sounds much better than I expected, even without an IR added.

One thing to consider is that IRs often increase feedback problems. Needing more than 15db of bass cut is pretty unusual, especially since your Pure Mini has been installed with glue, rather than tape.

Reading the Ultra Tonic description on the James May Engineering website, it claims that the Ultra Tonic typically delivers “at least 10db more than a K&K at the fundamental chamber resonance around a 100Hz”. I wonder if that much “medicine” can fully correct a problem which is requiring you to cut the bass more than 15db. Albeit, the UT add-on would surely make your rig much more manageable.

I’d be very curious to know how the HiFi would act in the same (seemingly problematic) guitar, but I agree with the others that the Ultra Tonic (or the UT add-on) is probably your best option. That’s especially true if your guitar has a unusually responsive top.

[Aspiring]

I had reached out to James May regarding the upgrade kit and sound quality. His response was that a well installed K&k should have a sound quality equal to his full install when using the k&k conversion kit. I will likely go that route with the k&k in one of my recent acquisitions.

[Br1ck]

I could not wait to take K&Ks out of a D 35 I bought. I thought they were malfunctioning so took the guitar to a tech. They were working as they were supposed to. Before playing my guitar, the tech rolled all the bass off a Fishman mini.

Dazzos for me in every guitar. But Teddy put them in for me, and there was some swapping, but 50% or better Teddy's suggestion was correct the first time.

[Larrison]

I think you've gotten great advice so far RE: the Ultratonic upgrade or other options- If I were in your shoes (and I sort of am) I would lean toward leaving the K&K installed and add the upgrade kit.

I have 3 guitars with K&Ks, and the only one that is a little feedback prone is a cedar top dread with the old pre-mini K&K Trinity system. I attribute that to 1) the older pickups with larger pads were more bassy, and 2) the cedar top. My other two guitars are both minis and one is spruce and one is a mahogany top.

I do wonder if your redwood top is a bit more feedback prone than a spruce top would be. Interested in keeping up with this thread, as I have a redwood topped guitar on order that I WILL be adding a pickup to. I am leaning toward an Ultratonic + K&K mic + Tonedexter II.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Larrison

I think you've gotten great advice so far RE: the Ultratonic upgrade or other options- If I were in your shoes (and I sort of am) I would lean toward leaving the K&K installed and add the upgrade kit.

I have 3 guitars with K&Ks, and the only one that is a little feedback prone is a cedar top dread with the old pre-mini K&K Trinity system. I attribute that to 1) the older pickups with larger pads were more bassy, and 2) the cedar top. My other two guitars are both minis and one is spruce and one is a mahogany top.

I do wonder if your redwood top is a bit more feedback prone than a spruce top would be. Interested in keeping up with this thread, as I have a redwood topped guitar on order that I WILL be adding a pickup to. I am leaning toward an Ultratonic + K&K mic + Tonedexter II.

With reference to the cedar top issue, my Anthem SL equipped, cedar topped OM is the guitar in my collection which requires the biggest cuts of the low and low mid frequencies.

[rschultz]

I removed a K&K 10 years ago... did my very best but still destroyed it.

Current K&K is similar to OP, super bass heavy and mid heavy. Takes a strong cut at 160 Hz to make it usable, and even then seems dull in the high end. I added the UltraTonic conversion about a year ago, it helped but I think I need to go back and redo the calibration because I'm still not happy with it.

Recently I built an Aion L5 Preamp Pedal, it is a 2 channel electric guitar preamp. Left channel is simple Fender TBM, right channel has a Baxandall BT and a sweepable mid.Both channels have a bright switch. Oddly enough, the 2nd channel with the sweep seems to make the K&K a LOT better. I cut the bass hard, cut the mids at 160 and turn on the bright switch and it sounds pretty darn good. YMMV.

[kathyson]

Originally Posted by aschroeder

My issue isn’t due to technique sine I get major feedback instantly even if I’m not playing (when I plug in direct). I also play mostly fingerstyle and I am not an aggressive strummer. The pickup is literally unusable without massive EQ.

Could it be due to a bad sensor? I purchased the guitar used and the K&K was already installed. I checked it with a mirror and the 3 sensor placement looks good.

Use a proper pre-amp. K&K is high impedance. Red eye is a pefect match. Baggs is a mis match.

[alohachris]

sorry, duplicate post

[alohachris]

Aloha,

If you're trying to use a K&K in a larger guitar, you absolutely need to use a pro level preamp with the best parametric EQ - like the Grace Design dual-channel Felix 2 for your best tone quality & the critical room control you need.

K&K installations vary greatly & also the glue that is used & the balance that is achieved. Note: Make sure the glue is FRESH - medium viscosity Franklin Titebond Superbond Glue is best. Not contact cement!

Use a repair luthier to reinstall your K&K properly with full frequency response.

Adding a mic will improve your sound a lot more than an Ultratonic if natural acoustic sound is your goal.

The biggest improvement comes when players move away from consumer-level preamps (Baggs, Fishman, Red-Eye, Headway, K&K, Sunnaudio, etc,) & up into a pro-level preamp that can offer deeper parametric EQ for the best tone & room control.

Move up to the Class A Electronics of a Grace Design Felix 2 Dual-Channel Live Preamp. You really need this preamp if you are playing out regularly or looking for the best live sound a K&K can achieve. It's that good! It's all about control with the K&K (especially bass & Lower mid freq's around 160-200 hz in tougher rooms).

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...-blender-black

Good Luck!

alohachris

PS: K&K's do better in smaller guitars. Smaller guitars also do MUCH better in live gigging & recording situations. I found that to be true in every situation - alohachris