Is Runout A Big Deal?

[upsidedown]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Thanks for setting things right.

For me, runout is not something I believe I have encountered. I would think that any reputable builder, whether an individual or a factory, would not knowingly let a structurally unsound guitar to be sold. For me personally, if it was only a matter of cosmetics, I wouldn't care as long as the guitar sounds good and plays easily.

IK have to admit that there are a number of concerns raised in these forums that I had never given any thought to prior to coming here, and I don't think my enjoyment of the guitar was any less for not being aware of these things. If anything, maybe it was a case of "ignorance is bliss". I think this subject is one of those.

Tony

I'd seen "runout" referenced here many times and, giving it no further thought, assumed it was something akin to "bearclaw." However, I was at "my luthier's" shop a few weeks back and picked up a D-18 top that he had lying around. He explained to me that it had failed, due to extreme runout. Don't want to put words in his mouth, I'm probably paraphrasing.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by upsidedown

I'd seen "runout" referenced here many times and, giving it no further thought, assumed it was something akin to "bearclaw." However, I was at "my luthier's" shop a few weeks back and picked up a D-18 top that he had lying around. He explained to me that it had failed, due to extreme runout. Don't want to put words in his mouth, I'm probably paraphrasing.

That is what Frank Ford referred to in the article regarding failure: extreme runout. So apparently there are differing levels of severity.

I had one guitar that had what folks here call "bear claw". To me, it looked like something wrong with the wood. Yet, a number of people here seem to really like it. I prefer a clear top with straight close grain. But then, there are folks who want a brand new guitar to look beat up, while others of us want the new guitar to be pristine. Different strokes.

Tony

[godfreydaniel]

I think bearclaw adds stiffness to the wood, which is a good thing. Dana Bourgeois is a big fan of bearclaw.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by godfreydaniel

I think bearclaw adds stiffness to the wood, which is a good thing. Dana Bourgeois is a big fan of bearclaw.

I have read other posts in other threads that say the same thing, also citing Dana Bourgeois as the reference. Unfortunately for me, I just don't care for the look.

Tony

[Wade Hampton]

Referring to bearclaw, Tony wrote:

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I have read other posts in other threads that say the same thing, also citing Dana Bourgeois as the reference. Unfortunately for me, I just don't care for the look.
Tony

I don’t care for either bearclaw or runout, and don’t have any of either on any of my guitars. This wasn’t deliberate avoidance on my part, but I definitely wasn’t seeking out those characteristics, either.


whm

[edward993]

"Bearclaw" is wood figuring. Not all figuring is aesthetically pleasing. So saying yes or no to bearclaw is tough, like saying yes or no to flame or quilt. Sure there are some that are adamantly against any such figuring. But as for me, and likely many is my guess, I would have to say it still depends on how "good" each individual guitar's bearclaw --or whatever figuring-- looks.

With runout, however, this is not a "feature" of the wood as much as how the sucker was cut and pieced. To me, runout always looks off! OK, so if it sounds good, then it sounds good ...but it still looks bad. On the lower end of the price ladder, this is acceptable. But there is undoubtedly a price point where runout should not exist. Yes, my opinion, but one I am betting is likely shared by many when plunking down serious coin is involved. At a "certain" tier, you simply expect better; everyone does. So while wood figuring is certainly subjective, there is no denying that a top with runout in no way whatsoever looks as good as a guitar without. Factor in the price and make yer choice.

Edward

[RogerHaggstrom]

Run-out is a flaw in the wood. It makes the wood less strong, and it will crack easier when bending. In a guitar, it's good for the sound having the fibers in the wood running over the whole length of the top instead of having multiple starts and stops of fibers along the length.

Also, when doing repairs on tops with a lot of run-out, you will likely dig into one half of the book matched top wood under the fretboard or bridge when loosening with a spatula.

[L20A]

Runout is a deal breaker for me on an over $1,000.00 guitar.
Under that and I can live with what I see as lesser quality.
You should get what you pay for.

[steveh]

The best sounding guitar I’ve ever played had a ton of runout.

Cheers,
Steve

[OPJ77]

Originally Posted by steveh

The best sounding guitar I’ve ever played had a ton of runout.

Cheers,
Steve

What was it?

[Bridgepin]

No, not at all. I am more interested in the tone and feel I get from the guitar, if it ticks all the boxes I'm good.

[hairpuller]

Originally Posted by OPJ77

What was it?

It was a Runout OM.

[Italuke]

So...is runout on a continuum, or is it like, well...your wife is either pregnant or she ain't?

That is, does the apparent darkness or lightness of a book matched top vary? Because to me it matters how drastic the difference is. So far most comments here have implied it's black/white.

[kcnbys]

A very small percentage of trees have NO twist in grain. In order to use a vast majority of the good wood available, you have to allow for a certain level of acceptable runout that will not compromise the quality of the guitar. This is obviously possible and has been done for many years.

[Mycroft]

Probably most guitars have at least a touch of runout, although it may not be the entire guitar top but only some of the top as the wood twisted. Sometime it is so light that it is unnoticeable barring the presence of a strong single light source. (example, right now there is a strong sun streaming in the windows. None of the guitars who happen to be out on stands have noticeable runout... most of the time. But in today's strong sunlight, all four show a slight and visible two toning to the tops. Old Martin(barely), Webber, McAlister, Beneteau.) The more runout, the stronger the two toned effect. On the other hand, I also have another guitar with a pronounced two toned top. The builder picked it off of the LMI reject pile, where it lay due to the runout, because of the stiffness and tap tone. He held onto it for years until he found a customer who was far more concerned about tone than looks.

None of which will convince the naysayers, and is not intended to. You like what you like. I suppose that is where Sunbursts come in...