Very expensive guitars: should run-out be tolerated?

[JoeCharter]

Lately I've noticed that even guitars made by some of the world's most reputable luthiers come with tops that show some visible amount of run-out.

Factory builds? Ok.

Starting builders with down to earth pricing? Ok.

I understand that "mastergrade" (notice the quotes) split wood with no run-out is uncommon and more expensive, especially for Euro spruce -- but is it uncommon and expensive enough to justify that some guitars with a base price north of $25K may sport a two-coloured top?

[needspeed]

I am new to this obsession, but I also was thinking the same thing. There have been many discussions on this as to its effect on sound and structural impacts.

From an esthetics perspective, I would be disappointed in a high end build that displays this trait. Since I am willing to pay the price, I would expect the best in every way.

BTW: I just bought a Kwasnycia slope "D" Cocobolo/Sitka and the wood all around is perfect in every way and I thought the price was very fair and far less than the top priced builders.

I have a build with Bruce coming up in Feb 2013 and I am sure he will build be a wonderful guitar without any sign of runnout. Maybe he might chime in here.

But what do I know.........Steve

[M Sarad]

Does runout sound bad?
Does it split?
Do the guitars explode?

[mb propsom]

I'm not a maker in that price range, but I do have an opinion on the runout controversy. In my experience (and bias, of course) a certain degree of runout in a top is only an asthetic concern, not structural or tonal. About 10 years ago, I purchased thirty some tops from a sawyer (from the same log). Some had no runout, others had runout. A couple that had no runout were so floppy that they're going into classicals (yes, I have used sitka for classicals). The others, both with and without runout have great stiffnes and a wonderful tap. And they (forgive my lack of humility) have made some esquisite sounding instruments.
I believe that the appearance of the top should be one of those factors stipulated by the customer. If someone with 25K (or even 3 or 4K) to drop wants a top with no runout, for the sake of uniform appearance it's his/her right to demand it of the maker. If the only reason for wanting a no-runout top is the fallacy that it makes a better sounding instrument, he/she might want to think again.
One person's opinion.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by M Sarad

Does runout sound bad?
Does it split?
Do the guitars explode?

Did I even come close to implying that in my original post? No.

The tone of your post suggests you did not understand the essence of my question.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by mb propsom

I believe that the appearance of the top should be one of those factors stipulated by the customer. If someone with 25K (or even 3 or 4K) to drop wants a top with no runout, for the sake of uniform appearance it's his/her right to demand it of the maker.

To be perfectly honest, if we ask 100 people who buy $25K guitars whether they would prefer run-out or no run-out, how many people will choose the former?

Originally Posted by mb propsom

If the only reason for wanting a no-runout top is the fallacy that it makes a better sounding instrument, he/she might want to think again.

No worries, I don't do those drugs.

[rgregg48]

If someone even mentions paying 25k for a guitar
I run out immediately..

but seriously,, what is run-out in referance to guitar tops?
Rick

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by needspeed

I am new to this obsession, but I also was thinking the same thing. There have been many discussions on this as to its effect on sound and structural impacts.

I am not exactly obsessed with it as most guitars do show some sign of run-out if you look close enough.

Personally I would think there could be some structural impact if the amount of run-out is extreme -- which is not the case of most quality instruments and definitely not the case for custom builds.

As for the effect of some minimal run-out on sound, I think one would be taking themselves way too seriously to make such a claim.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by rgregg48

If someone even mentions paying 25k for a guitar
I run out immediately..

but seriously,, what is run-out in referance to guitar tops?
Rick

Lots of info on this page: http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html

[dberkowitz]

You will find varying degrees of runout in tops, greater in Adirondack, and European varieties (because they are generally smaller trees), and becoming more common in Sitka. It's not discussed much outside the builder community, but there is a shortage of large sitka trees. Unlike Brazil, and India, that don't allow whole logs to be shipped outside the US, we sell unprocessed logs, many of which go to Asia for 2x4's. We're simply running out of large logs from which we can get really good tonewood.

The supplier from whom I used to buy tops now has sheds for Martin, Taylor, etc -- the big boys -- and no one I know who makes a dozen or so guitars per year can get tops from them anymore -- some of these makers are in the 16-30K range. The days of perfectly quartered, zero run-out, perfectly even color, are over. Over the next twenty years you'll see the changes, even from the larger concerns, not only in tops, but in alternative materials as well. You already see it -- wood that I wouldn't have otherwise thought of building with is being sold and built with regularity. Much of it is visually stunning, but its stability is something that time will tell.

[MikeD]

I agree with you Joe, and there is zero chance that anyone could change my opinion on the subject. Regardless if it adversely affects the tone or integrity of the guitar, I hate the look of it and refuse to simply accept it because a builder doesn't want to spend the extra $200 on his tops in order to avoid it...especially when they up charge customers 100-200% the cost of the wood for their "master grade stash" in the first place.

[needspeed]

Originally Posted by dberkowitz

You will find varying degrees of runout in tops, greater in Adirondack, and European varieties (because they are generally smaller trees), and becoming more common in Sitka. It's not discussed much outside the builder community, but there is a shortage of large sitka trees. Unlike Brazil, and India, that don't allow whole logs to be shipped outside the US, we sell unprocessed logs, many of which go to Asia for 2x4's. We're simply running out of large logs from which we can get really good tonewood.

The supplier from whom I used to buy tops now has sheds for Martin, Taylor, etc -- the big boys -- and no one I know who makes a dozen or so guitars per year can get tops from them anymore -- some of these makers are in the 16-30K range. The days of perfectly quartered, zero run-out, perfectly even color, are over. Over the next twenty years you'll see the changes, even from the larger concerns, not only in tops, but in alternative materials as well. You already see it -- wood that I wouldn't have otherwise thought of building with is being sold and built with regularity. Much of it is visually stunning, but its stability is something that time will tell.

What you say makes sense and I agree that we are at the tipping point of traditional wood availability and available quality.

I have no doubt that a great Luther will always find a way to make a great guitar.

The issue is what will be perceived as quality aesthetics/tone profiles as we shift to new woods and make the best of what is still available.........Steve

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by dberkowitz

The supplier from whom I used to buy tops now has sheds for Martin, Taylor, etc -- the big boys -- and no one I know who makes a dozen or so guitars per year can get tops from them anymore -- some of these makers are in the 16-30K range.

Thanks for your answer, David.

I guess I was wondering whether someone who REALLY wants a "true mastergrade" top can still get one if the price is right.

I have found in my recent dealings with luthiers that they were mostly able to accommodate for a fairly reasonable amount of money. Most of the time I find that I'd be willing to pay an even higher premium for a really nice spruce top.

My thinking was, if those guys were able to do something about it, why don't the big guys do something about it, too? If McIlroy uses split tops only, why can't others?

I am not criticizing -- just thinking out loud.

[Simon Fay]

Hi Joe,
I DESPISE runout. I think it looks awful. But it is becoming absurdly difficult to source tops without it -- especially, Engelmann and the Euro spruces.

I usually will purchase my tops from LMI. I will buy about 40 AAA or Mastergrade tops (basically, the best they have in stock) and sift through them. I might end up keeping 2 to 6 of them!!!! The vast majority have runout which is a shame because some of them are cosmetically beautiful otherwise. And some perfect tops may not have the structural qualities I'm looking for either.

You can still find Mastergrade stuff but it is difficult. I have some true mastergrade Swiss spruce and German spruce but I think I would have a difficult time finding a mastergrade set on short notice. As a luthier, you just have to always keep your eyes out for good tonewood.

Also bear in mind, that in order to really see whether the top will have "noticeable" runout - it helps to sand the wood to 150 grit, have the set joined, and then wet with a bit of mineral spirits to approximate the look under a finish. So sometimes you might buy a set that has more runout than you are comfortable with. In other words, being picky about runout ends up costing the builder a fair amount of money and time in the long run.

[dberkowitz]

Joe, I didn't take it as a criticism. In fact, what the general public perceives as a "perfect" or "master grade" top may not in fact jibe with what the luthier believes it to be. A number of those at the upper level use good wood, without regard or rather with less regard than the general public would think toward the cosmetics. These builders select from (if we're using a Master, AAA, AA, A rating) AA and some AAA materials because they're looking for something other than cosmetics -- a balance between weight, stiffness, and the like. Several of these builders are over $20K and they are both in the steel string and classical guitar worlds.

To a degree, there will be a supply of "good" wood, but not the likes of which visually the community has become accustomed.