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Old 03-19-2021, 09:34 AM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Default Jazzboxes on a shoestring...

For those who crave some classic archtop mojo but don't have the big bucks to spend, here's some under $1K options from MF:



https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...step-tailpiece



https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...pin-ii-cutaway (NOTE: the humbucker version is on sale for $200 off - P-90 is regular price)



https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...lectric-guitar
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Old 03-20-2021, 11:46 AM
EllenGtrGrl EllenGtrGrl is offline
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I like my hollowbodies to have 17" (at the lower bout) bodies, and it's probably why I've always preferred Country Clubs when I had Gretsches (the Falcon variants have too much bling for my taste), and I will admit that the EXL-1 has intrigued me for the past several years. It's just that their necks are kind of thin (.787" at the first fret) .
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Old 03-20-2021, 09:38 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl View Post
I like my hollowbodies to have 17" (at the lower bout) bodies, and it's probably why I've always preferred Country Clubs when I had Gretsches (the Falcon variants have too much bling for my taste), and I will admit that the EXL-1 has intrigued me for the past several years. It's just that their necks are kind of thin (.787" at the first fret) .
FWIW since the resurgence of Gretsch everybody seems to be marketing their own variation on the White Falcon theme - several of Epiphone's Royale models, Guild's white/gold Starfire VI and A-150 Savoy Special, the D'Angelico EXL-1 above, among others - it's arguably the electric counterpart to the Martin D-45 in terms of bling (and at one time in terms of market supremacy), and quite frankly Gretsch is the only one who could pull it off successfully...

If you're looking for adequate acoustic tone as well as electric capability IMO a 17-incher is the entry point size-wise - if you're playing in what amounts to the cello register you need a cello-sized body to obtain adequate frequency response - but be advised that the RPO D'Angelicos are all-laminated construction: less detrimental to tone than with a flattop, but if this is an important selling point you might want to look into either the Guild A-150 (solid top only) or one of the all-carved Eastman archtops. The latter also boast 1-3/4" necks - and while the .787" / 1-11/16" D'A neck would be absaolutely perfect for me (my early jazz training - on archtop - made me a lifetime "fingertip" player) the wider dimensions tend to appeal to many players coming over from flattop acoustic and/or using a "flat-finger" left-hand technique...
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Old 03-21-2021, 08:23 AM
EllenGtrGrl EllenGtrGrl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
FWIW since the resurgence of Gretsch everybody seems to be marketing their own variation on the White Falcon theme - several of Epiphone's Royale models, Guild's white/gold Starfire VI and A-150 Savoy Special, the D'Angelico EXL-1 above, among others - it's arguably the electric counterpart to the Martin D-45 in terms of bling (and at one time in terms of market supremacy), and quite frankly Gretsch is the only one who could pull it off successfully...

If you're looking for adequate acoustic tone as well as electric capability IMO a 17-incher is the entry point size-wise - if you're playing in what amounts to the cello register you need a cello-sized body to obtain adequate frequency response - but be advised that the RPO D'Angelicos are all-laminated construction: less detrimental to tone than with a flattop, but if this is an important selling point you might want to look into either the Guild A-150 (solid top only) or one of the all-carved Eastman archtops. The latter also boast 1-3/4" necks - and while the .787" / 1-11/16" D'A neck would be absaolutely perfect for me (my early jazz training - on archtop - made me a lifetime "fingertip" player) the wider dimensions tend to appeal to many players coming over from flattop acoustic and/or using a "flat-finger" left-hand technique...
I sling a guitar up high like a jazz player (I guess in a way I am a jazz player, since I dabble in jazz, when I play clean), and since I pick from the wrist, the larger 17" body provides for me, an oh so comfortable armrest. I am also a fingertip player (and a classical style player - thumb behind the neck please), courtesy of my uncle (Guitar Generation #2 in the family), who had classical guitar lessons through the local music conservatory at grandpa's insistence (grandpa was Guitar Generation #1 - he played jazz guitar in dance bands, and was a also a guitar repairman and luthier [he made acoustic guitars]). My uncle insisted that I play classical style.

A wider neck helps things (and as a result, I prefer wider necks on flattops), but thin profile necks on wide necked guitars, still make my fretting hand feel like it's trying to do the C-Clamp thing (since I play classical style), which is uncomfortable for me, and can cause hand soreness.

Unfortunately, other than Eastman (which I like - I just spent well over $1300 on an Eastman E8OM that just came back from refretting [I'm allergic to the nickel that is in most guitar frets]) I'm stuck with a vintage guitar, if I want an archtop with a chunky neck. It's too bad, because Musician's friend lists an EXL-1 with a finish blemish, that's soooooo cheap at $320. As long as the blem doesn't look hideous (it didn't in the photos I saw), I can live with that. Ditto for the laminated top - my FilterTron loaded Country Clubs (which I got rid of, because I got tired of the thin necks most Gretsches have), had laminated tops (the Dyna loaded 'Clubs are the ones with the carved spruce tops), and sounded fine. But that neck on the EXL-1..........
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Last edited by EllenGtrGrl; 03-21-2021 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 03-21-2021, 08:47 AM
Frankieabbott Frankieabbott is offline
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Like the look of the second guitar from the top (the tobacco coloured one). Clicked the link and it took me to a Line 6 interface thingy! Anyone know the make and model of this guitar so that I can investigate further. Thanks.

Addendum. Got it folks......Godin 5th Avenue.
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Old 03-21-2021, 10:22 AM
renoslim renoslim is offline
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2nd one is Godin 5th Ave CW Kingpin II
I have the p90 version. The Humbucker version is $200 off.

Well made and I like the sound and playability. Playing it right now. Made in Canada
Lee
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in alphabetical order, (so none of them gets jealous)
Breedlove, Eastman, Epiphone, Fender, Gibson, Godin, Guild, Gurian, Larrivee, Loar, Martin, Recording King, Taylor, Voyage Air, Webber, Yamaha ...
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Old 03-21-2021, 11:09 AM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default Can you play them first?

At my last jam session before the virus shut things down, a friend showed up with a similar D'Angelico her boyfriend just bought. It was a lovely guitar, as almost archtops are, but I found it heavy, with a too-slim neck. "Have a look at this," I said, showing her my Godin Fifth Avenue Kingpin. Within a half-minute, her eyes were wide and she was grinning ear to ear. "this feels like it was made for me," she exclaimed. I told her to take it home for a few weeks and make sure.

She remained sure, so I sold it to her for my cost, $400. It was a striking example, light, unstained cherry with straight, parallel, wide grain lines slightly diverging at the bottom end, like arrow feathers. It was my longest-owned guitar, the one that led me from the pain of dreadnaughts to the pleasures of Mini Jumbos. But I hadn't played it in months, since I got good pickups in my acoustics. I was happy to see it go to someone who would appreciate it.

That's just one example, but a direct comparison between guitars mentioned here. Question for Archtop Guru Steve- do any of the Fifth Avenue models have a wider fingerboard?
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Old 03-21-2021, 12:03 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbrain View Post
...do any of the Fifth Avenue models have a wider fingerboard?
No, they don't - Godin adapted (wisely IMO) the 1.72" neck of the Seagull S6 Slim to the archtop platform, as a compromise that would presumably appeal to both older jazz-trained players who came up with 1-11/16" (and often slimmer) necks, and fingerstyle/"flat-finger" acoustic players from the '1-3/4" or death' camp; FWIW they seem to have been successful - although the niche-market all-acoustic 5th Avenue was discontinued (BTW I love mine - perfect couch guitar with its slimmed-depth 16" body) the electric line appears to be a steady if hard-to-find seller. FWIW if there was enough player interest, it wouldn't be too hard for Godin to produce a "Fingerstyle Jazz" model with existing tooling - similar to the old Jazz model but based on the ultra-lightweight CW II platform, with pickguard-mounted PU/controls and the 1.8" neck of the standard Seagull S6 - but would there be enough difference in Monsieur Robert's eyes to justify adding it to the lineup...?
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Old 03-22-2021, 04:48 AM
EllenGtrGrl EllenGtrGrl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
No, they don't - Godin adapted (wisely IMO) the 1.72" neck of the Seagull S6 Slim to the archtop platform, as a compromise that would presumably appeal to both older jazz-trained players who came up with 1-11/16" (and often slimmer) necks, and fingerstyle/"flat-finger" acoustic players from the '1-3/4" or death' camp; FWIW they seem to have been successful - although the niche-market all-acoustic 5th Avenue was discontinued (BTW I love mine - perfect couch guitar with its slimmed-depth 16" body) the electric line appears to be a steady if hard-to-find seller. FWIW if there was enough player interest, it wouldn't be too hard for Godin to produce a "Fingerstyle Jazz" model with existing tooling - similar to the old Jazz model but based on the ultra-lightweight CW II platform, with pickguard-mounted PU/controls and the 1.8" neck of the standard Seagull S6 - but would there be enough difference in Monsieur Robert's eyes to justify adding it to the lineup...?
I never realized that 1 3/4" wide necks were aimed towards players who keep their fingers flatter to the fingerboard. I was taught to arch my fingers on the fingerboard for easier movement on the neck. I never even played (at least knowingly) a guitar with a fingerboard wider than 1 11/16" until the 2010s (I've been playing for 42 years). Still, as much as it galls me to to say so, my hands are oversized. Wider fingerboards do seem to be better for me (though 1 11/16" wide fingerboards are not a deal breaker for me - as long as the neck has some decent thickness to it [my Tele is a case in point]), but they just aren't enough, since I play classical style (thumb behind the neck) - I need some decent neck thickness. It doesn't have to be a baseball bat, but at least a Medium C of .850" or more at the first fret.

I learned this lesson the hard way last year, when I bought a Martin DSS-17 (yes, I like slope shouldered 'dreads). I thought the 1 3/4" wide neck would suffice. It didn't. I hated the modified low oval neck it had (which almost all Martins have nowadays). The neck felt cramped, and I felt like I was fighting the guitar, when I played it, so after only 4 months of owning the DSS-17, I got rid of it, making it a very expensive (for me) failed experiment. For decades I put up with thinner necks, telling myself that "I'd get used to them" (when in reality, I only tolerated them), after all, the wisdom at the time (from the 70s through the 90s) was that a "thin neck is a fast playing neck," and since I've played lead guitar in my bands for a long time, I wanted a fast playing neck. I played a chunky necked guitar in 2009 or 2010, and realized that I found it much more comfortable than the typical Gibson-style slim taper neck I played on for decades. I also realized that I didn't suffer playing speed-wise.
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Last edited by EllenGtrGrl; 03-23-2021 at 11:17 AM.
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  #10  
Old 03-22-2021, 07:21 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl View Post
I never realized that 1 3/4" wide necks were aimed towards players who keep their fingers flatter to the fingerboard. I was taught to arch my fingers on the fingerboard for easier movement on the neck...
We need to look at the middle third of the last century for a little clarification: although it was assumed that trained players universally adopted the fingertip technique, the first generation of 1-3/4" necks gave way to 1-11/16" by the mid-1930's - particularly on archtop guitars, which were considered the virtuoso instruments of their heyday. I don't know when your grandfather's Emperor was made, but back in the early/mid-70's I personally handled two late-prewar Epiphones (one Triumph, one Broadway) with 1-9/16" necks - a specification that would not be revisited for the next quarter-century (during the Kalamazoo period), and a tacit acknowledgement of the emergence of soloists of the "classical archtop" school (BTW search this topic on the AGF Search engine - a fascinating style and period in guitar history), the "shredders" of their day who required less-bulky profiles to execute the genre-specific techniques; FWIW even Martin adopted a 1-5/8" specification for its F-Series archtops, while the flattops (by then the near-exclusive province of "hillbilly" and early folk players, serious classical players having defected to Spanish-style instruments by 1930) maintained the 1-3/4" nut as standard on its larger guitars into the late-1930's, and the late 19th-century 1-7/8" "narrow-classical" spec on its 12-fretters through the CFM III era...

Although Epiphone would revert wholesale to 1-11/16" necks with the postwar decline of classical archtop, they would also introduce an interesting exception in the 1955 Harry Volpe model - a non-cutaway, all-laminated single-PU hollowbody aimed at the beginner market, and the final new product marketed by the New York operation; period ad copy specified a wider neck (1-3/4" according to accounts I've read - I've never personally encountered one) specifically intended to provide easier fingering for beginners - the premise being that, as they acquired the requisite left-hand precision and dexterity, they would transition to the "professional" 1-11/16" dimension. FWIW I also had the pleasure/honor of playing Wes Montgomery's personal L-5CES when MandoBros was brokering its sale in the early-2K's; suffice it to say that its neck width/profile, typical of early-60's Gibson specs, would cause mass apoplexy among the '1-3/4" or death' crowd - and I think we can all agree that Wes' technique/tone credentials need no further introduction...
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  #11  
Old 03-23-2021, 08:15 AM
EllenGtrGrl EllenGtrGrl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
We need to look at the middle third of the last century for a little clarification: although it was assumed that trained players universally adopted the fingertip technique, the first generation of 1-3/4" necks gave way to 1-11/16" by the mid-1930's - particularly on archtop guitars, which were considered the virtuoso instruments of their heyday. I don't know when your grandfather's Emperor was made, but back in the early/mid-70's I personally handled two late-prewar Epiphones (one Triumph, one Broadway) with 1-9/16" necks - a specification that would not be revisited for the next quarter-century (during the Kalamazoo period), and a tacit acknowledgement of the emergence of soloists of the "classical archtop" school (BTW search this topic on the AGF Search engine - a fascinating style and period in guitar history), the "shredders" of their day who required less-bulky profiles to execute the genre-specific techniques; FWIW even Martin adopted a 1-5/8" specification for its F-Series archtops, while the flattops (by then the near-exclusive province of "hillbilly" and early folk players, serious classical players having defected to Spanish-style instruments by 1930) maintained the 1-3/4" nut as standard on its larger guitars into the late-1930's, and the late 19th-century 1-7/8" "narrow-classical" spec on its 12-fretters through the CFM III era...

Although Epiphone would revert wholesale to 1-11/16" necks with the postwar decline of classical archtop, they would also introduce an interesting exception in the 1955 Harry Volpe model - a non-cutaway, all-laminated single-PU hollowbody aimed at the beginner market, and the final new product marketed by the New York operation; period ad copy specified a wider neck (1-3/4" according to accounts I've read - I've never personally encountered one) specifically intended to provide easier fingering for beginners - the premise being that, as they acquired the requisite left-hand precision and dexterity, they would transition to the "professional" 1-11/16" dimension. FWIW I also had the pleasure/honor of playing Wes Montgomery's personal L-5CES when MandoBros was brokering its sale in the early-2K's; suffice it to say that its neck width/profile, typical of early-60's Gibson specs, would cause mass apoplexy among the '1-3/4" or death' crowd - and I think we can all agree that Wes' technique/tone credentials need no further introduction...
My grandpa's Emperor was a mid 40s model. He obtained it in an interesting way. According to my dad, he repaired a guy's Gibson archtop, and the guy liked the work he had done so much, that as a tip, he gave my grandpa the Emperor, stating that "something was wrong with it [and had been, since the day he'd bought it], and if my grandpa fixed the guitar's issues, he could have it." I wish I could have grandpa's old Emperor, but my uncle Joe (my dad's youngest brother, and Guitar Generation #2 in the family) inherited it when my grandpa died, and he never gives up anything (not even the guitar grandpa made for me when I was little, that I gave to my uncle, when I almost wrecked it as a noob at age 15, by putting steel strings on it [it was a nylon string guitar], so my uncle could fix it, and use it to teach my cousin, to play guitar with). It's too bad in a way, my cousin Chris (who is just a coffee house chorder) will probably inherit the guitar, despite the fact that my uncle admitted years ago, that I'm the best player in the family, and would make the best use of the guitar.

As for the uber skinny Epiphone, and late 60s to the late 70s Gibson archtop necks - well, I had one of those guitars. Mine was a 70s Les Paul Signature (basically a '335 with an Les Paul - style lower cutaway, low impedance pickups, and a Varitone switch). That neck was tiny to put it mildly! It's hard to believe that my Les Paul Signature was my main guitar through my college years in the 80s - it got so cramped if you played up by the nut.
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Guild OM-120
Guild F-2512E Deluxe 12-string
Eastman E3DE
2013 Ibanez AFJ-95
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  #12  
Old 03-23-2021, 08:17 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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I didn't even know nuts came in different widths until I started joining internet forums
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