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  #16  
Old 01-22-2020, 10:59 PM
tadol tadol is offline
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Originally Posted by jt1 View Post
Absolutely.

But, the process begins with the luthier asking how the wood was cooked and then discussing the wood parameters with then client. Anything less is fraudulent.
Fraudulent ? Seems harsh - do luthiers currently request kiln schedules on their materials, and discuss those with clients?

If someone is getting a custom, hand-built guitar - I’d hope you trust all the decisions the builder makes - and its extremely interesting to me to hear the experiences and concerns that are being expressed by builders, especially with a newish material that has so much potential -
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  #17  
Old 01-23-2020, 04:38 AM
jt1 jt1 is offline
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So interesting, John - I just sent a PM Cheers, Dave Olson
Thanks, Dave!
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  #18  
Old 01-23-2020, 08:47 AM
redir redir is offline
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It seems to me that luthiers develop relationships with their suppliers over the years and build a trust. I think fraudulent is a bit harsh. I mean you could take that argument to an extreme too and suggest that we would know the GPS coordinates and the date and time stamp of every tree cut down that we use to build guitars and nothing outside of moon spruce grown above 1000m of elevation should be used too. Instead I let the reputable suppliers take care of that for me.

And it's not like T wood doesn't have any provenance, it has been around for a while.

I look forward to seeing your research it sounds very interesting.
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  #19  
Old 01-23-2020, 08:54 AM
jt1 jt1 is offline
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Fraudulent ? Seems harsh ...
I agree. That is harsh. Thanks for calling me on it!

But, I do think that luthiers need to inquire about how their wood was torrified and should inform the client of that and how that process might affect tone, durability, etc.

Again, thanks for calling me on my exaggeration.
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Old 01-23-2020, 09:02 AM
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IndianHillMike IndianHillMike is offline
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Originally Posted by j. Kinnaird View Post
Hey fellow builders. I bought some torrified adi spruce bracewood. I'm not convinced that it is as trustworthy as my non torrified adi bracewood. Tapping on an equally sized hunk of torrified spruce rings with similar volume and sustain as tapping on the nontorrified hunk of adi. It's clear that the torrified wood has been through a lot and I'm wondering if any damage was done that would affect the long term durability of a top brace under stress. Are the benefits of torrified braces worth whatever uncertainty such treatment brings. If anyone uses this bracewood and could comment on the risk/benefit outcomes I would love to hear about it.

In my shop we've found that for whatever reason torrified spruce does not work well with hide glue so I would definitely be wary of that. One of the other guys had a bridge or two pull off (walnut glued to spruce) which lead to a bunch of tests with different woods, gram strengths of hide glue, PVA glues, etc. and found that torrified spruce and hide glue fail much sooner than other glues.
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  #21  
Old 01-23-2020, 09:35 AM
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Bill Kraus Bill Kraus is offline
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Here is some information from a previous 2015 forum post by Wade Hampton regarding torrefied wood from respected repairman Frank ford and Mass Street Music owner Jim Baggett.

"One thing I have heard from several sources is that the changes that torrefaction brings to the wood does result in some adhesion problems. I asked Frank Ford of Gryphon Stringed Instruments about this, saying that I'd heard there were problems getting finishes to stick onto torrefied wood. Frank confirmed that rumor, and added that he was seeing some braces and other glue joints coming loose on these instruments at a higher rate than on non-torrefied wood."

I did ask Jim about adhesion problems with torrefied tops, and he was more noncommittal about that than Frank had been. But he did say that one thing the torrefaction process does is make the wood more brittle. "You're not going see more humidity-related cracking with it, but impact cracks are more likely."

Here is a link to the entire post;
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=409537
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  #22  
Old 01-23-2020, 10:44 AM
Halcyon/Tinker Halcyon/Tinker is offline
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You might find something of interest here.

My takeaway is that with any glue, the wood is still more likely to fail than the glue joint, but due to the brittle nature of torrefied wood, that failure will come at a sooner point. That being said, all joints seemed to hold up to any pressure a guitar might experience in normal usage.

Due to torrefied wood's aversion to absorbing water, I use more glue than I normally use, and clamp it up for a much longer period of time.

https://youtu.be/FHybI5y5byQ
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  #23  
Old 01-23-2020, 11:39 AM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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The heat treated wood I've seen has all shared a lower resistance to splitting. I feel that split resistance is an important attribute of brace wood, so I would not use it for that.

It also makes sense that it would tend to have lower surface energy, and thus be harder to glue. The key there is to glue freshly worked surfaces; don't let them sit out 'open' for more than 15 minutes after surfacing. Planing gives the best gluing surface, followed by a sharp scraper, with sand paper 'way behind.
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