*12 action, *14 tone?

[dmsnyder]

I love my 514CE, but every time I play a *12,I wish I had the 514CE's tone and the looser action of the GC models. I am playing fingerstyle guitar, bare fingered. (Ragtime, Celtic, some classical)

I know, "Buy a 712." I just might do that, but I haven't found one whose tone is as appealing to me as that of the 514.

So, in the meantime, is there some reversibleprocess by which I can achieve looser string action on the 514? I am using light Elixer strings.

Should I try even lighter gauge strings? Should I try tuning the guitar down a half step? Finger strengthening exercises?

Thanks.

David

[grip]

The scale length on x14's and x12's is the same so assuming you're using the same string gauge, the tension should be the same. If you have mediums on your x14 and play an x12 with lights, the x12 will feel looser. I sometimes put medium or heavy gauge strings on (not on my Taylor) and tune down a whole step. For a looser feel on your 14 you could do the same with whatever gauge you have on the guitar. Try tuning down a 1/2 step first, then go a whole step down. You could also try an alternative tuning such as DADGAD which will have a looser feel than standard tuning and really make your 514 ring.

[cpmusic]

You might also have the setup on your 514 checked. If the neck has too much relief or the action is too high at the nut and/or saddle, it's going to feel tighter than a properly set-up Taylor with the same gauge strings. Taylors are set pretty well at the factory, but like any other instrument, they will settle in as they're played and need tweaking.

[wigglejaggles]

Hey Now!

Just get a setup doneby a good luthier and let him know what you play and what u want your guitar to feel like when u play. It will be the best 100 bucks ever spent as Bob Womack would say :-)

Its the truth! Go for it !!

I had mine setup and boy does it play so much better! Have a bone saddle put in as well....more clarity from each note...better tone all around!

take care,
Jared

[dmsnyder]

I took my 514CE in to discuss its action with the Luthier.

He said the only ways to get a looser action is to use lighter strings or tune it down. Other adjustments can lower the action, but will not change the string tension.

Grip had it right. (see above)

Anyway, to console myself, I bought a 712 (cedar top, three-piece back, wide neck). I feel better.

David

[Bob Womack]

Dave,

Try a little test: Place a capo on your second fret and play something. You've eliminated the nut from the equation. Does the action feel a little better capo'd? If so, your nut and bridge could be a little high for your tastes. I've got two nearly identical guitars, one of which is set up low for fingerstyle and the other higher for rhythm work. The higher one feels as if its strings are at higher tension, though they aren't when the guitar isn't fretted. Think about it, when you fret, you are laterally flexing the string an additional distance on a higher action than you are on a lower action. What happens when you laterally flex a metal string which is anchored at both ends?

I discussed this on another thread, HERE.

Take care,

Bob

[dmsnyder]

Bob,

You mean I should return the 712?

I can see how changing the nut and bridge height would affect the subjective feel for the left hand, but I don't have a problem with that. I would like less tension for right hand feel (bare fingered playing). Would the apparent force necessary to pluck a string be changed?

David

[Bob Womack]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. Nope. If you like the feel of the 712, keep it!

Right-hand response is more a function of the top wood and bracing, which determine how much force is necessary to drive the string into motion. Here is how the woods stack up, from most responsive to least responsive: cedar, engelmann spruce, sitka spruce. The dreads are braced more heavily and require a little more force. The grand auditoriums are braced with the lightest braces, but the grand concert has less of them. Probably, the lower mass of the grand concert allows it to vibrate easier than the rest.

So, if you are looking for a guitar which requires the least amount of right-hand force, an engelmann- or cedar-topped x12 could easily be it.

Do you have nails on your right hand? They allow you to increase volume dramatically without jacking up the force much.

Bob

[Orphan]

Is there a Womack brand guitar in our future? I just might buy one. Imagine Taylor, Goodall, Collings, Womack...

[dmsnyder]

Bob,

Thanks for all the information. I'm starting to understand the variables affecting how a guitar "feels."

However, in the interest of full disclosure, I must confess that, when I got the 712 home, I found that it was tuned down a half step! When tuned to A=440, it's string tension was indistinguishable from that of my 514ce. (Now where's that blushing smiley?)

Of course, in other respects, the 712 is a very different creature. It has a less balanced sound which I thought I disliked at first. But when I started playing music with a moving base line, e.g., classic ragtime, the melody and base lines were much more distinct. (Does this make sense?) I like it.

With my 514ce, it was "love at first sight," but the 712 is really growing on me. That's after 3-4 hours of playing since getting it home.

Re. finger nails: Yes. When playing bare fingered, I use classical finger placement which employs both finger pad and nail. I keep my nails pretty short and well-shaped for optimal tone production.

David