Musician or Player

[david_m]

I made a comment on a different thread that stirred up quite a response. I thought it was deserving of its own thread so here it is.

I made the statement that there is a difference between a musician and a player. By my definition (whatever that's worth) a musician is someone who has a good grounding in music theory, song structure and can read and write music. A player is someone who can play the instrument but doesn't necessarily know a lot about music. I also tried to make it clear that there are players out there that are GREAT. They have reached a level of proficiency on their instrument that may be second to none. I just don't consider them musicians. Remember, this goes both ways. By my defintion someone could be considered a musician and still be a marginal player.

What I didn't make clear (and should have) is that I don't consider someone's lack of musical knowledge to be a detriment to their ability to play. I don't think it is necessary to be a musician to be good (if not FANTASTIC) on any instrument. In my mind there's a big difference between making music and being a musician. I think it's quite obvious someone can make exceptional music without a vast expanse of musical knowledge.

I would also say that those people who can make great music without knowing much about music probably know more than they think (that's a weird sounding sentence). They just haven't formalized their knowledge. For example, just about anyone who has written a song on guitar has probably used a ii, V, I turn in their song. Those who don't know about song structure and theory just did it because it "sounded right". The difference between the fomalized knowledge, and playing because it sounds right is the ability to repeat something intentionally. If you know what a ii, V, I turn is you can do it in any key. If you play by feel, you have to "stumble" on to it almost by accident.

A couple of folks brought up Doyle Dykes as an example of someone who is obviously an accomplished player who has admitted he can't read or write music. Based on what I have read about Doyle Dykes (from interviews, etcetera), he has a very thorough grounding in music theory. He may not be able to read standard notation, but he does understand music theory and song structure. Also, he could have two broken thumbs and a dislocated shoulder and STILL play me into the ground. I can read standard notation, but I am not (nor will I ever be) as accomplished a player as Doyle Dykes.

So, he understands theory, he understands song structure, he can't read or write in standard notation and he's arguably the best fingerstyle guitarist in the world. Musician or not? I would vote yes based on his thorough understanding of music depsite his inability to read.

So what's the view? What's the difference between a musician and a player? I don't view one as being intrinsically better than the other, but I do view them as being two different approaches to making music.

[worshipvertical]

I agree with your statment. We used to joke in highschool about the difference between a percussionist and a drummer.

By the way I WILL BE AS GOOD AS DOYLE DYKES.

I WILL I TELL YOU I WILL.

Ok I'm done

[Guitar Dad]

As an example, my wife started learning music via the piano at the age of three. She can read music, and plays intermediate-level music on the piano on a weekly basis. Her training enables her to pick up just about any brass or woodwind instrument (flutes, sax, etc) and, with little practice, she can belt out songs. She even plays some great tunes on Guitar Baby's plastic xylophone, of all things. I think she's a musician, as her skill & knowledge is generally transferrable across instruments. She recently started playing the violin, which is a reach for her physically (getting the fingers to behave properly), but not musically (she knows the fingerboard already).

I've been hacking away at guitar for 3 years. I barely know the fretboard, but as david_m suggested earlier, I can sometimes tell when chord changes just don't sound right. I've even "composed" & recorded a few fingerstyle improvisations. Am I a musician? Clearly not. I can't easily transfer my feeble musical skills from the guitar to another instrument. I lack the musical foundation to do this. BUT, I've actually been able to play a few very simple tunes on my wife's violin, purely based on my limited knowledge of the fingerboard & a violin's tuning. But that's arguably because they are more similar than, say, guitar & flute.

The question I have is, how can a "player" develop into a "musician"?

I guess CHet Atkins said it best when asked by the Conductor of the orchestra, if he could read music. Conductor apparently didn't consider Chet a musician, but rather a Hillbilly geetar picker. In an attempt to embarras Chet in front of the entire orchestra, he said "Mr Atkins, I assume you CAN read music", to which Chet replied, "Well yes I can, But I'll try not to let that get in the way of my pickin" What that has to do with this thread, I'm not sure, But I sure do like that story!

[cpmusic]

Yet another $.02:

I've also thought that there's a difference between musicians and players, but from my perspective, formal knowledge and music literacy are irrelevant. To me, it's all about the ability to interpret music and present it as more than a bunch of notes that someone happened to string together. In that respect, Doyle Dykes is a musician, while the guy who reads and writes music but plays with no feeling is just a player.

[jcor]

According to Harcourt, Brace dictionary....(musician)...a professional performer or composer of music. One skilled in the performance or composition of music.

Hmmmm, not necessarily my opinion but for some reason I am always looking things up in the dictionary. haha

[tdp1]

I hate repeating myself.

Deja Vu

http://209.197.232.179/forums/showth...n&pagenumber=1

[Lefty56]

So then tell me, for someone wanting to become the best musician they can, what are the best teaching materials you would recommend. I started playing later in life and love to play. I've found myself on the search for the best self-instruction methods, i.e., books, software, videos. I've about come to the conclusion it would be best to get an instructor as much as I'd rather not. Any advice from anyone?

[charlemagne52]

Lefty...I'd just go in whichever direction gets you the most motivated and the most satisfied, meaning whatever gets you to pick up the guitar and play. Some people find it through lessons, videos, etc, others through playing with friends or just dubbing around alone. Definitely different for different people.

I learned theory, sightreading etc on other instruments but never did for guitar...it was the first instrument that I truly learned by ear, and I think it helped me learn to hear music better, listen to other musicians, and become a better musician.

[Inneedofa610ce]

I'd have to agree with you, but not as aggressivly. (spelling is my worst enemy) I picked up the guitar 1 and a half years ago. I had been playing the clarinet for about 6 years. As a progressed from total suckation on the guitar to mild suckyness to only feeling sucky when theres those dammn show offs at guitar center who pick at a mile a minute or rather 30 seconds. I never made the connection between being able to fly through pages of music on the clarinet and reading music with the guitar. One day I picked up my beatles book that my guitar teacher told me to buy but we never used and realized, HEY I CAN READ THIS! I had been self teaching myself music theory. (dammn circle of fifths) So it made me progress into being even better of the sucky player I am today.

[larpup]

To me, the answer is quite simple. Reading music/tab has nothing to do with it. If one has the ability to write songs or improvise then he/she is a musician.

If one just memorizes pieces or even reads music/tab, then I feel that person is a player, and not a musician.

The application of melody, harmony and rythym by a person makes one a musician regardless of complexity.


L

[anothersmith]

I'm a player, but I aspire to become a musician - and with some effort I'm convinced that's not beyond my reach!

[Inneedofa610ce]

Originally posted by larpup
To me, the answer is quite simple. Reading music/tab has nothing to do with it. If one has the ability to write songs or improvise then he/she is a musician.

If one just memorizes pieces or even reads music/tab, then I feel that person is a player, and not a musician.

The application of melody, harmony and rythym by a person makes one a musician regardless of complexity.


L

Well that would mean that I myself am a musician and my friend sarah is a player

[PaulLePine]

I think this whole thread tries to put too fine a point on it.

A musician is someone who makes music.
A guitar player is someone who makes music on a guitar.

The better your technique, the better musician you'll be, all else being equal.

The better your grounding in theory, the better musician you'll be, all else being equal.

Analogy: A shortstop and a pitcher are both baseball players. They may be pro or little league. One may have a natural gift for thowing heat, but have no sense of the strategy of the game. He has technique. The other may intuitively know when to play shallow or when to watch for a bunt, but has to work his fanny off in the batting cage. They're both ball players, both ahtletes, but with a different mix of talents and abilities that makes them able to make unique contributions.

Athletes/Musicians, Ballplayers/Guitarists...

Ogres are like onions. Just thought I'd throw that in for free.

[Raj414ce]

david m,

I pretty much agree with you. Our worship/music team in church always joke that we have a lot of players, but very few musicians. I consider myself to be a player. Whenever someone asks me if I'm a musician, I say no. I just play the guitar.