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  #46  
Old 07-13-2014, 05:07 PM
Teleman52 Teleman52 is offline
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Good to hear all that aaron, I just scheduled a lesson. I figure if I can learn enough to know how to hold the bow right, I can get going pretty well on my own. My goal is to simply learn fiddle tunes, I'm not interested much in improv or anything like that. Maybe later but it's not even something that I aspire to at this point.

So I think if I can learn the ergonomics correctly I can start to take off on my own simply by relearning the tunes that I know from mandolin to the fiddle. I'm hoping I can squeeze in around 5 lessons or so and then take it from there.

I really don't have a lot of time in my life to do such things, but I've decided this is something I really want to do and it's probably worth it
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  #47  
Old 07-13-2014, 05:40 PM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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Originally Posted by Teleman52 View Post
Good to hear all that aaron, I just scheduled a lesson. I figure if I can learn enough to know how to hold the bow right, I can get going pretty well on my own. My goal is to simply learn fiddle tunes, I'm not interested much in improv or anything like that. Maybe later but it's not even something that I aspire to at this point.

So I think if I can learn the ergonomics correctly I can start to take off on my own simply by relearning the tunes that I know from mandolin to the fiddle. I'm hoping I can squeeze in around 5 lessons or so and then take it from there.

I really don't have a lot of time in my life to do such things, but I've decided this is something I really want to do and it's probably worth it
i think that's a good approach. Knowing mandolin first will definitely help you, as you will already know where the notes are. Both mando and violin are very logically laid out, and much easier to think through than a guitar. I only take a lesson about once a month, as a tune up. Most of my work is on my own now, but it's really hard to do that as a beginner.

Once you learn how to hold the bow properly, practice a lot of long bowing. Start at the frog, and bow all the way to the tip. The entire way, try to keep the bow absolutely perpendicular to the strings, and try to keep the bow speed and pressure such that the tone sounds identical no matter where you are on the bow. Then do it from tip to frog. Do it on all four strings, then practice doing it on pairs. It's a lot harder than it sounds, and boring, but absolutely essential if you're going to get past the beginner stuff.
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  #48  
Old 07-13-2014, 06:08 PM
Teleman52 Teleman52 is offline
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i think that's a good approach. Knowing mandolin first will definitely help you, as you will already know where the notes are. Both mando and violin are very logically laid out, and much easier to think through than a guitar. I only take a lesson about once a month, as a tune up. Most of my work is on my own now, but it's really hard to do that as a beginner.

Once you learn how to hold the bow properly, practice a lot of long bowing. Start at the frog, and bow all the way to the tip. The entire way, try to keep the bow absolutely perpendicular to the strings, and try to keep the bow speed and pressure such that the tone sounds identical no matter where you are on the bow. Then do it from tip to frog. Do it on all four strings, then practice doing it on pairs. It's a lot harder than it sounds, and boring, but absolutely essential if you're going to get past the beginner stuff.
Well you have a 51 gibson lg2 so you must be pretty smart, I'll trust you

Question: how do you feel about note markers/ tapes for frets? Did you use them? I'm a little torn as to whether I will or not.


I'm really feeling a lot more confident this time since I know quite a few songs on the mandolin. The first go around I had never even heard these songs, I just knew that was the style I wanted to play, but I didn't know what to actually play. I don't think I even tried to play any songs during the short time I had my previous fiddle. This time I have a lot of material in my head to work with.

I'm actually hoping to make this my main instrument, that's the big goal for me

Last edited by Teleman52; 07-13-2014 at 07:46 PM.
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  #49  
Old 07-13-2014, 09:15 PM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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Well you have a 51 gibson lg2 so you must be pretty smart, I'll trust you

Question: how do you feel about note markers/ tapes for frets? Did you use them? I'm a little torn as to whether I will or not.


I'm really feeling a lot more confident this time since I know quite a few songs on the mandolin. The first go around I had never even heard these songs, I just knew that was the style I wanted to play, but I didn't know what to actually play. I don't think I even tried to play any songs during the short time I had my previous fiddle. This time I have a lot of material in my head to work with.

I'm actually hoping to make this my main instrument, that's the big goal for me
Ha! Fine instruments those 50's LG-2's. One of the best kept secrets in vintage guitars if you ask me. Mine is off at Randy Wood's having the neck reset, can't wait to get it back.

I never used the tape fretboard markers. I think if you understand intuitively how fingering works, with the intervals getting smaller as you go up the fingerboard, then the tape shouldn't be necessary. I think you'll eventually get to good pitch faster if you don't get used to the crutch of the fingerboard markers. And like a guitar, after a while your fingers just sort of know where to go.

Of all the instruments, the violin sounds the worst when you're learning it. Not only are you often playing out of pitch while you're learning, and making scratchy/squealing noises, but violins are LOUD. However, once you pass a certain point, they offer something that no other instrument can. It is the most expressive instrument on earth; the dynamic range, the ability to change attack and sustain, and the ability to vibrato and approach notes... can't be found on another instrument. While it can be difficult and frustrating, it is also an incredible amount of fun. I'm probably playing violin 80% of the time these days.

Also, being in Texas, you're a part of a fine fiddle/violin tradition. I'm sure you already know about Bob Wills, but when you want your mind blown head out to YouTube and check out Johnny Gimble. He's my favorite player of all time.
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  #50  
Old 07-14-2014, 02:00 PM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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I think more violinists/fiddlers have been done in by poor setups and lack of early instruction than probably anything else. Biting the bullet and paying for a few lessons at the beginning of your career will save so much frustration and distress down the road.

I agree with the spirit of Aaron's comment regarding tape, but I have not seen a beginning violinist who doesn't at least use a piece or two at the beginning. I started with a strip where the 5th fret would be, just as a guide and as a safety blanket. Staring at the vast swath of unmarked fingerboard was intimidating at first. Just one small piece of tape made it less daunting.

Oh, and buy a mute. I sounded so bad at the beginning, and my violin was so loud, that the mute saved MY sanity.
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  #51  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:07 PM
Teleman52 Teleman52 is offline
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I think more violinists/fiddlers have been done in by poor setups and lack of early instruction than probably anything else. Biting the bullet and paying for a few lessons at the beginning of your career will save so much frustration and distress down the road.

I agree with the spirit of Aaron's comment regarding tape, but I have not seen a beginning violinist who doesn't at least use a piece or two at the beginning. I started with a strip where the 5th fret would be, just as a guide and as a safety blanket. Staring at the vast swath of unmarked fingerboard was intimidating at first. Just one small piece of tape made it less daunting.

Oh, and buy a mute. I sounded so bad at the beginning, and my violin was so loud, that the mute saved MY sanity.
Yep, I got a couple of different mutes, I'm sure it will be a necessity. I've also decided to use tape for at least a little while, just so I at least have an idea where to go. I'll be sure to only use them as a guide though, and not look at them too much. I'll take them off after a month, no longer.

Anyone have any input on my choice of a 3/4 length bow? I'm surprised no one has said anything about it. I personally think it was a good choice still, (though I don't have the bow yet) I'm sure my teacher won't like it though lol. She is supposedly a classically taught violinist who also plays fiddle music from the old time and celtic traditions. I just don't see how such a long bow is necessary in old time music, I have no interest in classical at all
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  #52  
Old 07-14-2014, 07:26 PM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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Originally Posted by Teleman52 View Post
Yep, I got a couple of different mutes, I'm sure it will be a necessity. I've also decided to use tape for at least a little while, just so I at least have an idea where to go. I'll be sure to only use them as a guide though, and not look at them too much. I'll take them off after a month, no longer.

Anyone have any input on my choice of a 3/4 length bow? I'm surprised no one has said anything about it. I personally think it was a good choice still, (though I don't have the bow yet) I'm sure my teacher won't like it though lol. She is supposedly a classically taught violinist who also plays fiddle music from the old time and celtic traditions. I just don't see how such a long bow is necessary in old time music, I have no interest in classical at all
Well, I've never used a small bow so it's hard to say. I use a normal length, and I definitely use the whole bow when playing. I think if you have any problems, it may be that a 3/4 bow will be lighter, and will require more pressure from you to get decent tone. That will make it harder to stay fluid and relaxed when you're playing.
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  #53  
Old 07-14-2014, 08:21 PM
Dan Carey Dan Carey is offline
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I've seen quite a few instructors use the taped bow as an aid in bowing/tempo/volume exercises. I'm still waiting for my first official lesson but have been practicing bow technique using online lessons.
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  #54  
Old 07-14-2014, 09:32 PM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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Anyone have any input on my choice of a 3/4 length bow? I'm surprised no one has said anything about it. I personally think it was a good choice still, (though I don't have the bow yet) I'm sure my teacher won't like it though lol. She is supposedly a classically taught violinist who also plays fiddle music from the old time and celtic traditions. I just don't see how such a long bow is necessary in old time music, I have no interest in classical at all
The truth is, I have never seen an adult do it. You probably won't find it limiting at first, but as you advance, you will find that you use more and more of your bow. Ultimately, I think it will limit your ability to play certain passages.

It is a little like someone asking my opinion on left-handed fiddles. As a lefty myself, I sympathize, but ultimately you would be boxing yourself into a corner, so I would suggest it only as a (very) last resort.

A shorter bow is similar. If you find you absolutely can't play with anything else, well then, by all means, playing with a shorter bow is better than not playing at all. But again, ultimately I think you will find it limits you more than it helps you.

If I were your teacher, I would spend time trying to get you used to a full sized bow. I think it would be worth the effort even if you found it frustrating at first. Because you will, very quickly, find songs/tunes that utilize a significant amount of bow, even in old-time. As an example, I use almost all of my bow in the last note from the first phrase of "Amazing Grace." It is a dotted half tied to a quarter, or basically a whole note. It requires quite a bit of bow, for me, virtually all of my bow. I could use less in a pinch, but it would throw off my rhythm.

The other thing is, you want to give yourself some fudge factor. My bowing is far from perfect and there are times when I don't push enough, or I push too much; little mistakes like that would be more difficult to recover from if you had less bow.

Sorry to write so much, but since you asked twice I thought I would try to give a thorough answer rather than just a quick retort.
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  #55  
Old 07-15-2014, 07:10 AM
Teleman52 Teleman52 is offline
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Thanks for the thoughtful post.

I actually got the idea from reading about an irish fiddler (hes actually british) who uses a 3/4 bow AND he chokes up on it. His name is Davey Swarbick, hope i spelled that right. But hes actually very well known in England and pretty much a legendary fiddler.

I'm also not very tall, like 5"7 or so
I dont know though, its hard because i think the 3/4 bow will surely be easier to handle now, but like you said may end up limiting me in the future. Im shopping for a full size bow now. Im thinking i should learn on the 4/4 bow, i dont think it should be a problem to switch back and forth that way

Last edited by Teleman52; 07-15-2014 at 07:25 AM.
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  #56  
Old 07-15-2014, 09:40 AM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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Originally Posted by Teleman52 View Post
Thanks for the thoughtful post.

I actually got the idea from reading about an irish fiddler (hes actually british) who uses a 3/4 bow AND he chokes up on it. His name is Davey Swarbick, hope i spelled that right. But hes actually very well known in England and pretty much a legendary fiddler.

I'm also not very tall, like 5"7 or so
I dont know though, its hard because i think the 3/4 bow will surely be easier to handle now, but like you said may end up limiting me in the future. Im shopping for a full size bow now. Im thinking i should learn on the 4/4 bow, i dont think it should be a problem to switch back and forth that way
I think this is the right call. Since you mentioned playing old time fiddle, I'm assuming that you are hoping to jam with others. That means that you'll need volume. Volume requires bow speed. Bow speed requires bow length.
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  #57  
Old 07-15-2014, 09:51 AM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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Originally Posted by Teleman52 View Post
Thanks for the thoughtful post.

I actually got the idea from reading about an irish fiddler (hes actually british) who uses a 3/4 bow AND he chokes up on it. His name is Davey Swarbick, hope i spelled that right. But hes actually very well known in England and pretty much a legendary fiddler.

I'm also not very tall, like 5"7 or so
I dont know though, its hard because i think the 3/4 bow will surely be easier to handle now, but like you said may end up limiting me in the future. Im shopping for a full size bow now. Im thinking i should learn on the 4/4 bow, i dont think it should be a problem to switch back and forth that way
I guess I am average height (5'10"), but I don't think height plays a large role in what size bow you use. I have played with some very small women who all play with a full size bow.

In music, as in life, there is always someone who bucks a trend and makes it work. I tend to be in the camp that maintains the fewer trends you buck and the fewer idiosyncrasies you develop, the better off you will be.
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  #58  
Old 07-16-2014, 07:57 AM
Teleman52 Teleman52 is offline
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Thanks for talking me out of a bad idea guys. So i was able to change my order and swapped out the 3/4 bow for a full size Eastman BL-60, which is a pernambuco bow.

and then i also ordered an eastman cadenza BL-304. Which is a carbon fiber bow with a pernambuco veneer.

I figure both of these bows will be much better than the one i had before, and hopefully ill feel more comfortable with at least one. It will be good to have a spare bow. Ill probably use the pernambuco at home, and the carbon fiber to take to jams. But who knows, i may just like the cf bow better all around.

haha now ive almost spent twice as much on my two bows as i did my fiddle

Last edited by Teleman52; 07-16-2014 at 09:26 AM.
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  #59  
Old 07-16-2014, 09:16 AM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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the Cadenza bow I have seen and played are nice bow, bot just nice bows "for the money." Violin requires a different mindset than guitar, where a pick is $0.75. A nice bow costs more than an entry level guitar. You have, IMO made a wise decision not to go with a $20 bow.
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  #60  
Old 07-16-2014, 10:20 AM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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Originally Posted by posternutbag View Post
the Cadenza bow I have seen and played are nice bow, bot just nice bows "for the money." Violin requires a different mindset than guitar, where a pick is $0.75. A nice bow costs more than an entry level guitar. You have, IMO made a wise decision not to go with a $20 bow.
I agree. It sounds like you've chosen well for beginner bows, because to be honest it will be a while before you can tell the difference between a decent bow and a good bow. But even at the beginning, you'll play better with a decent bow than you will with a bad bow. The first year is tough... give yourself as many advantages as practical. The Eastman you bought should be serviceable, and all you need to learn on. As long as it's straight, has decent camber, good hair, and isn't too light or too heavy, it should work well. Most beginners actually prefer heavier bows, and move to lighter bows as their skills improve.

I consider myself a decent intermediate player. I recently upgraded from my beginner bow to a real pernambuco bow. I paid about $400, and that's really considered a low-end pernambuco bow. The difference was pretty amazing to me, but honestly I probably wouldn't have noticed it two years ago. Unfortunately, the difference between my $400 bow and a $2000 bow was also pretty distinct, which makes me wish I'd never played the $2000 bow.

As posternut alluded to, it's a whole different world from guitar picks. Good violin bows are very complex and difficult to make.
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