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  #16  
Old 11-28-2011, 01:38 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Rick, that would be a 6/9 chord. The beatles loved that one! Also common in bossa nova.

Diatonic harmony is based on stacking notes in thirds. Following strict diatonic harmony, R, 3, 5, is a triad, the next level of harmony is the seventh, a third up from the fifth (G to B in the case of C major)

Remember, a lot of guitar voicings might omit less important notes...we only have six strings! A common way to play a maj9 chord is R379, or x 3 2 4 3 x for a Cmaj9. The fifth is omitted (however, it could be placed on top with some tricky fingering...)
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2011, 02:58 PM
Cobby Cobby is offline
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I was just on Wikipedia and the article there states in a couple places that C2 is the same as Cadd9. Which means using C2 when you mean Csus2 would be wrong or confusing...
(of couse it could be the wikipedia article which is wrong or confusing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_n...#Chord_quality

"Names and symbols which contain only a plain interval number (e.g. “Seventh chord”) or the chord root and a number (e.g. “C seventh”, or C7) are interpreted as follows:
If the number is 2, 4, 6, etc., the chord is a major added tone chord (e.g. C6 = CM6 = Cadd6) and contains, together with the implied major triad, an extra major 2nd, perfect 4th, or major 6th (see below).
If the number is 7, 9, 11, 13, etc., the chord is dominant (e.g. C7 = Cdom7) and contains, together with the implied major triad, one or more of the following extra intervals: minor 7th, major 9th, perfect 11th, and major 13th (see Seventh chords and Extended chords below)."

//

"Notation must provide some way of showing that a chord is an added tone chord as opposed to extended. There are two ways this is shown generally, and it is very common to see both methods on the same score. One way is to simply use the word 'add', for example:

Cadd9
The second way is to use 2 instead of 9, implying that it is not a 7th chord for instance:

C2"
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2011, 03:17 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Always take wikipedia articles with a grain of salt.

But truth is, I've seen C2, Csus2, Cadd9, even Cadd2 all used synonymously in some cases...I know what I was taught, and I know what conventions I like, but I can't expect everyone to use the same...

The other thing is, there's very few situations in which playing an "add9" instead of a "sus2" will sound flat out wrong...which further muddies the water.

I've harped on it before...I just wish everyone would stick to the formulas piano players use, hic are all based on the major scale...but then again, that means a 13th chord is 7 notes! The real deal is that those seven notes are fair game, but few people are playing seven note chords...I might play a "13th chord" with only three notes!

But without question, a triad name followed by "add9" chord does not have a 7th. If it has a 7th (meaning, R, 3, 5, 7, 9) it's a maj9. That's not something to be argued.
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  #19  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:58 PM
Rick Homan Rick Homan is offline
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Jeff: I had to pull out my old Mickey Baker, v. 1, to double-check his Cma9 chord: x 3 2 2 3 3 = C E A D G = R 3rd 6th 9th 5th.

Of course it also makes complete sense to call that a C6/9. In fact that is a better name since the only thing "major" about this chord is that it is not a C9 with a b7th instead of 6th.

So, I like C6/9 better, but this other definition of Cma9 is out there. And thanks for the other definition of Cma9 -- x3243x. As I said, that's a new one one me, and maybe I will find a use for it.
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  #20  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:03 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Yeah, play around with that chord a bit more, I think you'll end up loving it...try preceeding it with a G7#5 (3x344x)...I love when I can turn folks on to a new voicing...one of my favorite things to do.

As for Mickey Baker, there's a few things I don't agree with in those books, but I still think they're golden...best crash course in jazz chords ever (because hey, by lesson 2 you're playing a altered chord with a flat 5th in the bass!)
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  #21  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
...As for Mickey Baker, there's a few things I don't agree with in those books, but I still think they're golden...best crash course in jazz chords ever (because hey, by lesson 2 you're playing a altered chord with a flat 5th in the bass!)
Hey Mr B...
After 17 hours of college music theory classes, I understand that most of the rules are based around piano (keyboard) based theory.

I often don't find keyboard basis for theory applicable to guitar, because with keys you have 10 notes (or more with the addition of the sustain pedal) available, and the max on a guitar is 6.

And even 6 notes on guitar stretches keyboard theory, because we don't have the capability to even build a progressive strummed 11 chord using all 6 strings (R 3 5 7 9 11) in standard tuning.

And since we can alternate tune (or open tune) guitars, there are new voicing possibilities available less readily accessible on keys.

Since delving into guitar for the past 47 years, I have re-thought many of the keyboard based 'rules' I studied in college (which I prefer to think of as guidelines) and have decided to be a bit more practical.

Usually I find myself thinking ''call it what you like and show me what you are playing…'' and tell me what you want/expect.


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  #22  
Old 11-28-2011, 06:04 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hey Mr B...
After 17 hours of college music theory classes, I understand that most of the rules are based around piano (keyboard) based theory.

I often don't find keyboard basis for theory applicable to guitar, because with keys you have 10 notes (or more with the addition of the sustain pedal) available, and the max on a guitar is 6.

And even 6 notes on guitar stretches keyboard theory, because we don't have the capability to even build a progressive strummed 11 chord using all 6 strings (R 3 5 7 9 11) in standard tuning.

And since we can alternate tune (or open tune) guitars, there are new voicing possibilities available less readily accessible on keys.

Since delving into guitar for the past 47 years, I have re-thought many of the keyboard based 'rules' I studied in college (which I prefer to think of as guidelines) and have decided to be a bit more practical.

Usually I find myself thinking ''call it what you like and show me what you are playing…'' and tell me what you want/expect.


I agree that practicality needs to be the best option.

I think as musicians we need to understand theory as a suggestion, not an ultimatum...I think of the formula for a 13th chord telling me "what's fair game" as opposed to telling me "what to play." It also helps me to know what notes a chord "could" contain when I'm improvising, so I know what will fit best over it.

I would think any piano player worth a darn does the same thing...It's rare to hear a good piano player pounding out ten fingered chords with 7 different notes in them...even when Red Garland would do "locked hands" we were really hearing 3 and four note voicings doubled in octaves...

I guess I see piano theory as a "necessary evil" as it allows me to communicate with other instrumentalists who know it...I don't spend much time playing with other guitar players, I'm usually playing with keys, horns, etc. so calling something what I want and showing it to them isn't really an option...I either need to spell out the voicing or use the shorthand (chord names...)

So I guess it depends on the background and playing situation...I'm fine with piano being the "grandaddy" of instruments and using the naming system developed on it.
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2011, 08:40 PM
41Gretsch 41Gretsch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
I think of the formula for a 13th chord telling me "what's fair game" as opposed to telling me "what to play." It also helps me to know what notes a chord "could" contain when I'm improvising, so I know what will fit best over it.
As a guy who plays a lot and knows a little, that's very helpful. Thank you.
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2011, 09:37 PM
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Mr. B is right, the lack of standardized labeling can be confusing (and infuriating!). I think many people use the label "sus2" to mean a structure that contains a root, a fifth, and a ninth (compound second): that wonderful sounding chord you get by fingering third string, second fret; fourth string, second fret; fifth, second, and first strings open, for example. But to me, the "2" in the formula "sus2" or "add2" seems pretty specific, and I wonder if someone may have been trying to indicate a specific voicing of a chord that contains the notes C, D, (E), G, with the D voiced a major second above the root. For example: the familiar first-position C major chord without the second finger on the fourth-string, second fret, but with the open D. In this case, add2/sus2 is an attempt at a specific voicing, whereas add9 is more general, meaning "place the nine somewhere above the octave."

Some of you may be aware that in "classical" tonal music, while the 4 always replaced the 3 in a sus4 structure (ex. C, F, G), the 9 never replaced the 3 when there was a sus9 structure (ex. C, E, G, D). In the first case, the note being suspended would most likely then resolve to the missing triad member (4 to 3), but in the second case, the note of resolution is already present.

Examples of a sus2 (C, D, E, G) in "classical" music are rare, but I have run across them occasionally.

For what it's worth, the late, great Ted Greene has mentioned what he called a 17th chord, which in theory would be C, F, G, Bb, D, (F), A, (C), E (I think this is correct). Anyway, it's essentially a dominant seventh sus4 with the "replaced" third voiced way up on top (with or without the 9th or 13th). It's a lovely sound. Of course, it's impossible to play the complete voicing on the guitar, but try sixth string open; barre strings 5 through 1 at the second fret; fret fourth string at the fourth fret; second string at the third fret; and first string at the fourth fret. Another voicing is fifth string open; fourth string, fifth fret; barre strings 3 through 1 at the seventh fret with the third finger; fourth finger on first string, ninth fret.
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  #25  
Old 11-29-2011, 08:06 AM
Gypsyblue Gypsyblue is offline
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Thanks for all of the responses! I hope this thread has been helpful.

At least I know what to call these chords now when I put them on my autoharps.

I was surprised about the 9th chord voicing that some here had never heard before - I use them all the time when I play blues and jazz.

The two staples for me are the C9 form (X C E Bflat D G) with the C at the third fret of the A string being the root, and the G9 form (X B F A D X) with no root but the missing G would be at the third fret of the low E string. Those are two extremely common forms for 9th chords used in blues.

I'm going to come up with a shorthand for add 9 chords. Some symbol. C add 9 is just to many letters and numbers for the little buttom on the chord bar of an autoharp. Maybe I'll put the "9" inside a circle or square or something and omit the "add".

I don't plan on using any 1, 3, 5, flat7, 9 9th chords on my harps...just add 9, Major 9 and "2" chords.
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  #26  
Old 11-29-2011, 08:14 AM
jasperguitar jasperguitar is offline
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two sources: C9 is : C-E-G-Bfl-D
source: Hal Leonard.
===================
"anytime you add a second, fourth, or sixth to just a triad, its called a second, fourth or sixth"

"anytime you add a second, fourth, or sixth to some kind of seventh chord, it's called by its upper name; that is: Ninth, 11th, or 13th"

... source .. David Hamburger.. Acoustic Guitar Method Chord Book.
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  #27  
Old 11-29-2011, 10:07 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Homan View Post
One disagreement with GypsyBlue and mr. beaumont:

I believe a maj9 is R 3 5 6 9.
No, the convention is as mr beaumont (and GypsyBlue) posted. "maj9" is R 3 5 7 9. The "maj" in the name refers to the major 7th interval, not the triad, and distinguishes it from a plain "9" (R 3 5 b7 9). (You can have a "m(maj9)" chord, which is R b3 5 7 9 - again the "maj" means the 7th, not the triad.)
R 3 5 6 9 is "69", or "6/9".

Of course, as mr beaumont also says, it may be academic. You can often include whatever extensions you like, as long as they occur in the implied scale. IOW, the symbol "maj7" might just be telling you that the chord is not a dom7 - you don't have to actually play the maj7 note in the chord, but would include it in an improvisation scale.

Generally the choice of a 6th or maj7 as an extension is dependent on the melody note. If the melody note is the chord root, a 6th chord is preferred (because melody notes are usually on top of the harmony, and a maj7 beneath that is going to clash). With any other melody note, a maj7 extension is fine, but 6th (and/or a 9th) might also be fine.
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I had never heard of R 3 5 7 9 before I saw it here. I just tried it, and it does not sound familiar either.
It's not that rare, but not an easy chord to play on guitar in full. In jazz, one would probably omit the 5th or (if there was a bassist) the root.
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  #28  
Old 11-29-2011, 10:20 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperguitar View Post
two sources: C9 is : C-E-G-Bfl-D
source: Hal Leonard.
===================
"anytime you add a second, fourth, or sixth to just a triad, its called a second, fourth or sixth"

"anytime you add a second, fourth, or sixth to some kind of seventh chord, it's called by its upper name; that is: Ninth, 11th, or 13th"

... source .. David Hamburger.. Acoustic Guitar Method Chord Book.
That's a good rule.
The exceptions don't really break the rule, they just modify it:

"add9" - no 7th, but then that's what the "add" is telling you. (The implication is it's a normal 9th chord with the 7th removed. "9minus7" might be a more accurate name, but convention has not considered that one . And of course "9-7" could easily be misinterpreted, as would "+9".)

"7sus4" - not "7sus11", because we're mentioning the 7 already in the symbol. IOW, "11 = 7+4". Likewise 13 = 7+6, 9 = 7+2.

The numbers don't indicate where in the chord the extension goes. An "add9" could go low in the chord, right above the root (1-2-3-5). A "sus2" could go high in the chord (1-5-9, a favourite voicing of Hendrix and Andy Summers among others.).
A "7sus4" could have the 4th high in the chord: 1-5-b7-11.
This is because chord symbols are not designed to indicate voicing, only the notes required. (Slash chords are the only symbols with a voicing indication.)
Guitar chord voicings are necessarily limited, and guitarists like to have the freedom to voice the chords however they can, with the intelligence to take context and voice-leading into account where possible.
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  #29  
Old 11-29-2011, 11:01 AM
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Thanks to all partitcipants, this is a very interesting topic to discuss about.
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  #30  
Old 11-29-2011, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m-thirty-great View Post
If there is a 7th, it is a 9th.
If there is no 7th, it is a 2nd.

This has always been my understanding, and seems to be the understanding of most on this thread.
It would seem to make more sense, then, to call the 9th chord a G7+9, for example, wouldn't it? The fact that there is a discussion on it means that reasonably experienced guitarists are not fully sure of the difference between a 2nd and a 9th. Inserting '7' into the description should help to clarify the difference.
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