Emerald X20 strings and setup questions...

[studioman001]

Hi everybody. I'm wondering if any other X20 owners can chime in on this?

My new X20 is fantastic as is it's case! I did not care for the stock strings so restrung it with Elixir nanoweb .12s which is my go to acoustic string and has been for years on all of my various acoustic guitars.

Oddly enough these strings just didn't sound good with this guitar which was surprising. The low E and A strings in particular just sounded flat and dull which is surprising because when I strung my Takamine, Baden, Martin, Larrivee, Taylor, Rainsong, CA Legacy and CA GXI with them in the past, the low end was rich and full.

Anyways, I decided to try a .12 set of the Ernie Ball Aluminum strings and wow, what a difference! The low end in particular has more volume and detail. I'm not crazy about the string noise but it's not a cleartone or Elixir string so I just have to live with it I suppose. I really dig the tone and volume but we'll see how long they stay fresh...

Onto my setup questions... The guitar plays perfectly on the first four frets and the intonation up the neck is spot on. The action is low enough to do hammer ons and pull offs with ease and there is no fret buzz etc as far as the first four frets are concerned. Moving up the neck though, the action gets considerably higher to the point where playing a solo is not comfortable nor are bar chords because you actually have to press down quite a bit to clear the distance from the string to the fret. Also, when you do press the string down enough to fret a note, I'm hearing some sort of sympathetic note an octave higher that's slightly out of tune. I'm really sensitive to high frequencies though so it may not be as noticeable to others as it is to me. I'm hoping that this will decrease once the strings are closer to the fretboard.

I'm not an acoustic setup guy so I may end up taking it someplace local but I'd like to avoid that if possible.

Have any other X20 owners out there had to tweak the factory setup or have somebody else improve it? Would this be a truss rod thing or should the saddle be sanded down? There does appear to be room for the saddle to be sanded down a bit as it's not flush with the bridge or anything. The factory setups on my Talor and Larrivee were fantastic all the way up the neck. If I could get this one the same way, I'd be a very happy camper.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

[GuitarLuva]

I tweaked my X20 a lot. Changed the tusq saddle with a dyed black bone saddle. In your case you can sand yours down to your liking or take it to a luthier.

I've tried a bunch of strings so far on the X20 and find it's a lot more particular about strings than the X30. I prefer bluegrass gauge for one and I have found that bluegrass gauge are not a good match for the X20. I won't go in to all the strings and gauges I've tried but I had to bump all the way down to custom lights. So far my favorite have been elixir nanoweb 80/20 bronze. I also hated the EB aluminum bronze. As a matter of fact they quickly took over as my most disliked string. It looks like me and you might be on opposite ends on what we're looking for regarding tone. I have the D'addario balanced tension nickel bronze to try next.

[studioman001]

Regarding my point about the nasty flat sympathetic note an octave higher that seems to sound when fretting or doing hammer ons on the higher frets, could some other X20 owners please do a test for me? I'd like to see if this is happening with other instruments and not just mine.

So, perhaps you could try doing a couple of things for me with your X20...

Start with an open e, a, or d string, and do a hammer on on the fifth fret and then the seventh, or, the seventh to the ninth for example.

Or, doing a hammer on with a diad.

Finally, say you're playing an e minor scale from the a string from the seventh fret but play it legato instead of picking every note...

Do you hear any other notes besides the fundamental as you're playing?

I wonder if it's the carbon fiber along with the stainless steel frets and the high action? Interestingly, if you fret a note and hold it, this does not happen when playing the note. It only happens when the string is first pressed down. In any case, I'm hoping that lowering the action will lessen this because I can hear it on playback after I record as well as when I'm actually playing and it's really bothering me.

[Captain Jim]

All seems normal on my X20 (Elixir Nanoweb strings). On my X10, there is a "phantom note", very high pitch. I walked all around my music room, trying to find the source (checking all the guitars on the wall, thinking it might be a sympathetic vibration)... yep, definitely coming from the X10. I finally tracked it down to the G-string above the nut... between the nut and the winding post.

I borrowed one of my wife's hair ties to put over it... phantom note gone. I'll see if that phantom note is still there after the next string change.

I could hear that note when recording acoustically, with a condenser mic, but not when plugged in. (So the pickups weren't... um... picking it up.)

[Earl49]

The phantom note thing is quite real. Mandolin players deal with this all the time, getting unwanted harmonics from string length below the floating bridge. I know several mando guys and gals who put rubber grommets between the strings down there to eliminate that problem.

I have no issues with my X20 (or others) but I have not gone specifically looking for problems either. One thing that seems to be consistent among comments here is that carbon fiber guitars are more sensitive to string type than wood. It's almost as if you need to find the right string for that guitar, not just what is on hand. That was certainly the case with my Blackbird Lucky 13. Strings that worked well on wood guitars made me immediately dislike the tone of the Lucky. So that set came off quickly.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by studioman001

Regarding my point about the nasty flat sympathetic note an octave higher that seems to sound when fretting or doing hammer ons on the higher frets, could some other X20 owners please do a test for me? I'd like to see if this is happening with other instruments and not just mine.

So, perhaps you could try doing a couple of things for me with your X20...

Start with an open e, a, or d string, and do a hammer on on the fifth fret and then the seventh, or, the seventh to the ninth for example.

Or, doing a hammer on with a diad.

Finally, say you're playing an e minor scale from the a string from the seventh fret but play it legato instead of picking every note...

Do you hear any other notes besides the fundamental as you're playing?

I wonder if it's the carbon fiber along with the stainless steel frets and the high action? Interestingly, if you fret a note and hold it, this does not happen when playing the note. It only happens when the string is first pressed down. In any case, I'm hoping that lowering the action will lessen this because I can hear it on playback after I record as well as when I'm actually playing and it's really bothering me.

I tested all those things I don't hear any other notes other than what I'm playing. My X30 had a wolf note that I was able to move. I cant find any on my X20. Also on the X30 the overtones were more prominent than on the X20. You can put practically anything to the left of the nut and make them go away, like a capo temporarily, or a piece of foam weather stripping under the strings. With the offset soundhole you tend to hear more vs a traditional center hole. All guitars produce overtones to a certain degree. To get rid of them from recordings people usually put something to the left of the nut to get rid of them altogether.

[studioman001]

Okay, I tried the capo behind the nut and it made no difference at all. It seems like the nasty flat overtone note is coming from the string making initial contact with the actual fret wire if that makes sense. It sounds like it's coming right off the fretboard and not the body of the guitar which would make sense. You can also hear a little clunk sort of sound when the string first touches the fret wire.

[Gitaman]

Studioman,

I hope you eventually find the cause and enlighten us. In the meantime, though unlikely with Emerald's factory set up, I could achieve similar unwanted noise with my OF660 basically when I try to lower the action with truss rod only and end up with a slight convex between the nut and neck joint. The string between the nut and fretting finger touches an unwanted fret if I finger a note between the bulge and the neck joint, thus causing noise. Sometimes the contact could be momentary and cause it to ring.

Relaxing the truss rod a little or checking the flatness of your freboard with a straight edge might be worthy experiments.

Good luck, Studioman!

p.s. I will fix it for you free! It sounds like a time-consuming project though.

[Gitaman]

I forgot to mention the common method of capoing the first and 12/14 frets allowing you to check the clearance between the string and the frets inbetween. I would recommend a set-up by a luthier if still not sure.

[studioman001]

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions everybody! I suppose I'll look for someone local that can do a setup for me. You'd think that a $2k+ all carbon fiber instrument with ss frets would show up perfect out of the box but it is how it is I suppose. Once I get it squared away, nothing should have to be adjusted later unless I change string gauge which is pretty unlikely in the near future.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by studioman001

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions everybody! I suppose I'll look for someone local that can do a setup for me. You'd think that a $2k+ all carbon fiber instrument with ss frets would show up perfect out of the box but it is how it is I suppose. Once I get it squared away, nothing should have to be adjusted later unless I change string gauge which is pretty unlikely in the near future.

I don't know if Emerald has one guy doing setups or multiple people. My X30 came perfectly setup. Low action without buzzing just the way I like it. My X20 came with high action which is pretty much the norm for a factory setup. Not everyone wants low action so most companies do it that way. Now quality issues of any sort is a different matter. What you're describing is weird and I don't know what else to tell you. Did you check for loose frets? I doubt that's the issue. As Gitaman suggested I would also check the neck relief as sometimes a truss rod tweak can do wonders.

[Melt in the Sun]

Sounds like back buzz...but you said it happens on hammer-ons?

[studioman001]

Hi. Hmmm. I'm afraid I'm not doing a great job of describing what's going on exactly. Let me try again...

If you do a hammer on from an open string, say doing a hammer on from the open string to the seventh, ninth, or twelfth fret for example, you get this terrible clunk sound along with a note that sounds a bit flat compared to the note you're fretting and it's an octave higher. The sound actually comes from whatever fret you press down after say the 4th. The first four frets sound and play perfectly.

Now I don't know if this means anything or not, but, if you hammer on from the open a string to the fifth and then the seventh fret with your first and third fingers for example, the clunk and weird overtone note keep ringing from the first fret you hammered on;the second note you hammer on with your third finger sounds normal. It's bad with the four wound strings but not so bad with the e and b. (Because they are the thinnest ones I assume.)

If you hold down say a triad or a full bar chord higher up on the neck and then strum it once all your fingers are already holding down all the notes, it sounds normal.

The action is so high from the eighth fret up that I was playing a scale and somehow managed to get my first finger caught under the low e string. Yes;under.

As I said before though, once a note is being held down and you play that note, it's fine.

Does that help at all?

Finally, before somebody asks, Yes, I did bring this up with Emerald because my X30 had the same issue only worse. In either case, they said they could not replicate it with the instruments they had on hand at the factory. They also said that this sort of issue hasn't been brought to their attention before. They even called me which was nice.

I sold my X30 which I loved at a loss due to this one issue. I love my X20 too but if I can't get this sorted out, I'm going to have to find another instrument which I don't want to do.

Could it be my ears? This can't be in my freaking head but why am I the only person experiencing it? If I just played cowboy chords all day, it'd be fine but I'm a lead player so...

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by studioman001

Could it be my ears? This can't be in my freaking head but why am I the only person experiencing it? If I just played cowboy chords all day, it'd be fine but I'm a lead player so...

I have to confess I've been reading this thread with a little bewilderment. To the best of my knowledge, I've never experienced the phenomenon you are describing. But, I'm naturally curious, so I thought I'd give it a try.

For reference, I have a stock X20, strung with D'Addario Nickel Bronze light gauge (12-53, I think). It's action is low, and just about perfect for my tastes - I haven't done a thing to it.

I pick it up, pluck the 6th string and hammer down, hard, at the 7th fret.

Immediately I heard exactly what you describe - the clunk, and the 'ghost' note. The clunk is easy - string hitting fret. The ghost note turns out to be pretty easy too - it's the string vibrating between the *6th* fret and the nut. The harder I hammer, and the higher the fret, the more noticeable it is. I could only make it happen while hammering down on an otherwise open string.

I tried another guitar - my 1963 Martin 0-16NY. Guess what? It did *exactly* the same thing - not as loud, but still quite noticeable. So did my Squier Jaguar electric guitar. So did my $99 nylon-strung Yamaha Guitalele - I didn't even take that one off the wall to hear it.

So, now I'm puzzled. How come in nearly 50 years of playing I've never ever noticed this phenomenon? The only conclusion I can come to is that in my normal playing, I hardly ever approach a string like that - a wide interval hammer-on - and if I ever do, there's most likely enough going on around that note to mask it. Either that, or I've just got used it over the years.

So, you're not dreaming. I'd be willing to state that this is present, in some form or another, on just about any fretted instrument out there. Carbon fiber construction and/or stainless steel frets may make it more noticeable - your experience with the X30 and your X20 might suggest that. Your X20 may well have other setup issues, but I don't believe that they have anything significant to do with this issue.

[studioman001]

It's not just doing a hammer on from an open string though. It's also when moving strings;when you're playing a scale for example and you move with your first finger to the next string... That being said, I hope that getting the action lowered will help a bit at least because right now, there is some distance the string needs to travel before it hits the fret. I believe this is making it worse.

I'm not a super delicate player but at the same time, I'm not slamming down my fingers when I fret notes.

I hear overtones and all sorts of stuff when playing guitars whether they be acoustic or electric but in this case, it's much more pronounced.