The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #46  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:14 AM
JakeStone JakeStone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 2,793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsoon1 View Post
I didn't realize the room was that big.
Here's something you could try. Line up the four panels on that wall. Then turn around facing the other way. That way the rear reflections will be well absorbed by the panels. And as has been mentioned, with a cardioid mic, the long reflections will hit the back of the mic, and also they'll be delayed significantly and won't muddy up the sound.
Short reflections muddy the sound, long reflections add ambiance.
Good suggestion and info!

What to do with the couch?
I could leave it there...or move to back or side wall?

Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-09-2019, 09:43 AM
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,272
Default

Picking a recording location is among other things influenced by the polar pattern of your microphone(s). If you use a cardioid type mike (like your mikes) sound coming towards the rear of the mike has much less of an impact on the recording. Given that volume drops six decibels with doubling of distance and looking at the typical cardioid polar pattern below you can see that playing facing a wall that is a few feet away with the mikes pointed away from the wall and towards you is not going to be a problem. With the mikes angled quite a bit (say in XY or ORTF mike setup) I would want to be further out from the wall.



On the other hand most of the sound volume of the guitar is projected forward. Behind the guitar (and you holding the guitar) the volume is also less by many decibels. That is a consideration when sitting facing out from a wall and the mikes facing the wall.

Of course quieter sound reflections off of walls, etc. is not a bad thing. It's the rooms ambiance.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-09-2019, 10:04 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 802
Default

I'm late to this.

Assuming nothing can be permanent/fixed, I'd probably make (4) 3' X 5' gobos from 1/2" plywood faced with 4" of OC 703 or Rockwool. Make a cave using the gobos, lay a couple 2X4's over the top, pile on some of the stuff you already have to serve as a roof. You can lay the gobos down sideways against that low back wall to get them out of the way.

Besides the added cost of materials, put in another line item: "Flowers for Wife."
__________________
Old Ibanez Dreadnought
Hideous Orange Indonesian Classical
Cordoba Tenor Uke
This list oughta lower the bar some.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:01 PM
runamuck runamuck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I'm late to this.

Assuming nothing can be permanent/fixed, I'd probably make (4) 3' X 5' gobos from 1/2" plywood faced with 4" of OC 703 or Rockwool. Make a cave using the gobos, lay a couple 2X4's over the top, pile on some of the stuff you already have to serve as a roof. You can lay the gobos down sideways against that low back wall to get them out of the way.

Besides the added cost of materials, put in another line item: "Flowers for Wife."
Why would you advise using 1/2" ply when that is another reflective surface? From all I've read, using absorptive material simply enclosed by a frame to hold it is more effective.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:26 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by runamuck View Post
Why would you advise using 1/2" ply when that is another reflective surface? From all I've read, using absorptive material simply enclosed by a frame to hold it is more effective.
To make it rigid and sturdy. you might be able to get away with 3/8" or even 1/4". And the plywood won't be reflective with 4" of 703 on top of it.

Yes, 4" of 703 surrounded by a lightweight wood frame is fine for hanging on the wall. But free-standing on the floor, probably not -- the frame will try to become a parallelogram.
__________________
Old Ibanez Dreadnought
Hideous Orange Indonesian Classical
Cordoba Tenor Uke
This list oughta lower the bar some.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:32 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Yes, 4" of 703 surrounded by a lightweight wood frame is fine for hanging on the wall. But free-standing on the floor, probably not -- the frame will try to become a parallelogram.
My GIK bass traps are 4'x2'x5.5". The absorbing material is 4" thick and they leave about 1.5" on the back for an air gap between the trap and the wall (from what I've read, I think that gap increases the efficacy of the trap). They're framed out of 1" pine boards (which as you probably know measure 3/4") with corner brackets also make from 1" pine. Most are handing but one has been sitting on a low bookcase for at least a decade and hasn't lost it's square. I checked the back, and they just used short corner braces to firm them up.

I did this quick mock up on Photoshop to show how small the corner braces are. This is eyeballed but it's pretty close. There are no additional braces on the front and, as I said, they're holding up very well.

Full disclosure: I hardly ever move it. If it were moved around a lot it might make a difference but that could likely be compensated for by making the corner braces larger and using 2" pine instead of 1".
__________________
Jim

2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
2002 Taylor 814ce Limited cocobolo/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce


SoundCloud link
Spotify
YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:39 PM
runamuck runamuck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
To make it rigid and sturdy. you might be able to get away with 3/8" or even 1/4". And the plywood won't be reflective with 4" of 703 on top of it.

Yes, 4" of 703 surrounded by a lightweight wood frame is fine for hanging on the wall. But free-standing on the floor, probably not -- the frame will try to become a parallelogram.
From what I've read from Ethan Winer and others, a piece of whatever is indeed reflective. Sometimes, for various reasons, some reflection will be desired but it's not the best absorber.

I have two floor standing 2' X 4', 4" rockwool panels with just 3" strips top and bottom and they are quite rigid.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:52 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 802
Default

So okay, you could make them backless with corner braces and they'd work. You can't fold up a triangle, so the size of the corner braces shouldn't matter.

I guess I was looking at it from the POV of a commercial studio owner whose clients tend to behave like stampeding buffalo.
__________________
Old Ibanez Dreadnought
Hideous Orange Indonesian Classical
Cordoba Tenor Uke
This list oughta lower the bar some.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:57 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I guess I was looking at it from the POV of a commercial studio owner whose clients tend to behave like stampeding buffalo.
Well that's easily rectified. The OP just needs one of these on the door.
__________________
Jim

2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
2002 Taylor 814ce Limited cocobolo/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce


SoundCloud link
Spotify
YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 01-09-2019, 04:04 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Well that's easily rectified...
That'll work.

At any rate, the headline is "Dead Gobo Cave."
__________________
Old Ibanez Dreadnought
Hideous Orange Indonesian Classical
Cordoba Tenor Uke
This list oughta lower the bar some.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 01-10-2019, 04:46 AM
Karel Karel is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 449
Default

Since my studio is reasonably well treated and I only need some extra, mobile panels from time to time I chose a very light alternative. Glued polysterene egg box panels on polymethane insulation panels. They are both available in my lumberyard in exactly the same sizes (50x100 cm) so it's 5 minutes work. The whole thing weighs next to nothing and is cheap. The polymethane panels are a little fragile so one could glue them on thin plywood. they won't resist buffalo stampeding but really help my acoustics where necessary. And yes, I know it is not the professional solution and polymethane is not for sound purposes, but as a second layer it works in my situation.

__________________
AKA Charlie

My lyrics and music on Youtube

Last edited by Karel; 01-10-2019 at 04:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 01-17-2019, 05:53 AM
Monsoon1 Monsoon1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: N.E. Ohio
Posts: 1,580
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by runamuck View Post
Why would you advise using 1/2" ply when that is another reflective surface? From all I've read, using absorptive material simply enclosed by a frame to hold it is more effective.
Yep. I saw a good write up on this many years ago in a recording magazine. The way they did it was they made a frame like you suggested, and on the back side they used a mesh commonly called chicken wire, and on the front they used a simple flannel-like material.
__________________
Something something, beer is good, and people are crazy.

Last edited by Monsoon1; 01-17-2019 at 06:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 01-17-2019, 05:59 AM
Monsoon1 Monsoon1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: N.E. Ohio
Posts: 1,580
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
My GIK bass traps are 4'x2'x5.5". The absorbing material is 4" thick and they leave about 1.5" on the back for an air gap between the trap and the wall (from what I've read, I think that gap increases the efficacy of the trap). They're framed out of 1" pine boards (which as you probably know measure 3/4") with corner brackets also make from 1" pine. Most are handing but one has been sitting on a low bookcase for at least a decade and hasn't lost it's square. I checked the back, and they just used short corner braces to firm them up.

I did this quick mock up on Photoshop to show how small the corner braces are. This is eyeballed but it's pretty close. There are no additional braces on the front and, as I said, they're holding up very well.

Full disclosure: I hardly ever move it. If it were moved around a lot it might make a difference but that could likely be compensated for by making the corner braces larger and using 2" pine instead of 1".
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/8dysqX8.jpg?1[IMG]
Big corner traps are to deaden strong bass nodes, and that's something you won't need to worry about if you're just strumming an acoustic and singing.
As long as you record in the middle of the wall, the panels you have will be plenty good.
And btw, using those panels should be able to get you some very nice recordings. Now you just have to press that record button!
__________________
Something something, beer is good, and people are crazy.

Last edited by Monsoon1; 01-17-2019 at 06:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:06 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 10,778
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
My GIK bass traps are 4'x2'x5.5". The absorbing material is 4" thick and they leave about 1.5" on the back for an air gap between the trap and the wall (from what I've read, I think that gap increases the efficacy of the trap). They're framed out of 1" pine boards (which as you probably know measure 3/4") with corner brackets also make from 1" pine. Most are handing but one has been sitting on a low bookcase for at least a decade and hasn't lost it's square. I checked the back, and they just used short corner braces to firm them up.

I did this quick mock up on Photoshop to show how small the corner braces are. This is eyeballed but it's pretty close. There are no additional braces on the front and, as I said, they're holding up very well.

Full disclosure: I hardly ever move it. If it were moved around a lot it might make a difference but that could likely be compensated for by making the corner braces larger and using 2" pine instead of 1".
I have both the GIK 5 1/2 inch thick and the 3 1/2 in thick ones
The 3 1/2 ones make great portable gobo type panels and are fine as constructed with the 1 by pine frame and corner braces . I made some 1 by stands to mount them on (see post #24 )
__________________
" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." Albert Einstein
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...


KevWind at Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 01-17-2019, 10:01 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsoon1 View Post
Big corner traps are to deaden strong bass nodes, and that's something you won't need to worry about if you're just strumming an acoustic and singing.
You can't accurately state that as a general rule. You might get away with it in a big room but it doesn't look like OP's room is all that large. As the room gets smaller, the problem of bass build up in the corners will become more prevalent on recordings done in that room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
I have both the GIK 5 1/2 inch thick and the 3 1/2 in thick ones
The 3 1/2 ones make great portable gobo type panels and are fine as constructed with the 1 by pine frame and corner braces . I made some 1 by stands to mount them on (see post #24 )
I have the 3.5 inch ones also. Mine are mounted on the ceiling above my recording space.
__________________
Jim

2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
2002 Taylor 814ce Limited cocobolo/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce


SoundCloud link
Spotify
YouTube
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=