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  #16  
Old 11-13-2018, 12:18 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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I don't want to come off as anti-scientific :-) A compromise between needing a degree in acoustics before you can do a recording and just randomly trying things is to use simpler software like Room EQ Wizard that simply measures your room and can tell give you some useful info, without getting all theoretical about it. it also helps to at least read a bit about room acoustics before trying things, so you understand the issues - but then what matters most is how it sounds in the end. There is so much good info and demos out there on how you can improve room acoustics - anywhere from total room remodels to setting up a few temporary baffles - that it should be possible to get a good sound with a tiny bit of self-education and some educated trial and error.
you didn't come off as anti-scientific to me, I just think trial and error in recording has a lot of merit. I remember one time watching a guy place fig 8 mic in the corner of a room and sing into it. It sounded great, and it was something that he learned by just trying all the spots in his room, and LISTENING.
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:28 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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I don't want to come off as anti-scientific :-) A compromise between needing a degree in acoustics before you can do a recording and just randomly trying things is to use simpler software like Room EQ Wizard that simply measures your room and can tell give you some useful info, without getting all theoretical about it. it also helps to at least read a bit about room acoustics before trying things, so you understand the issues - but then what matters most is how it sounds in the end. There is so much good info and demos out there on how you can improve room acoustics - anywhere from total room remodels to setting up a few temporary baffles - that it should be possible to get a good sound with a tiny bit of self-education and some educated trial and error.
While I like and respect science, I am much like yourself. Science is only a guideline and quite susceptible to poorly imputed information. Thus poor conclusions. And let us not forget that all in the universe is not yet known.
A quote:
Buckminster Fuller created the “Knowledge Doubling Curve”; he noticed that until 1900 human knowledge doubled approximately every century. By the end of World War II knowledge was doubling every 25 years. Today things are not as simple as different types of knowledge have different rates of growth. For example, nanotechnology knowledge is doubling every two years and clinical knowledge every 18 months. But on average human knowledge is doubling every 13 months. According to IBM, the build out of the “internet of things” will lead to the doubling of knowledge every 12 hours.
What I like to say is "Logic trumps Science" However like all things...it can sometimes be the reverse. But Logic often puts things in a perfect perspective for myself. Your Flashlight analogy is Perfect. While science is certainly involved, the logic in your statement makes great sense. Or at least that is the way I see it. Others might argue that you are simply giving the end result of science.
I have designed a few personal products in different fields. For my own use. Sometimes what should work and what really works are two different things.
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  #18  
Old 11-13-2018, 12:37 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Rooms have resonances and standing waves, so yes, different spots can sound different. Depending on your room, you may find spots that sound better than others. You can do a theoretical analysis, and there's software that can help you do that - check out my web site, a section on all steps I went thru in building my garage studio for some screen snaps - but it's easier and more efficient to just try things, the software is based on all kinds of assumptions about materials and so on, hard to take it too seriously. But your ear can tell you if one spot is better or not. If your room is too bad, nothing will help, tho. It just depends.

Here's an example of "beyond repair" - no change in location will fix this. This was my garage before I treated it - concrete floor, hard walls, etc:

http://dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/18inches_bare_room.mp3

Here's the same mic, guitar, and position after I was about 90% done with room treatment:

http://dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/Final...3_18inches.mp3

and then here's the result of closer micing, in stereo, again right after I'd finished adding room treatment (I think I'd added a bit more in the way of treatment by this time, + closer micing):

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/8..._realtraps.mp3

I hope I get better recordings than any of these now, but those were just quick examples trying to quantify whether all my work on room treatment was worthwhile.

Sorry for the thread drift...
This comparison you have done is amazing. Pretty hard to deny the difference in sound between the recordings.
You have put forth crystal clear evidence as to the importance of Room Treatment. Once again helping to get closer to the recorded sound process that I will need.
While, I like to consider myself logical to a great degree. Obviously one can not be logical altogether due to Feelings. Feelings get in the way of Science and Logic. Thus, I am still lusting after those Schoeps! ha ha
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  #19  
Old 11-13-2018, 02:42 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Default Little tribute to Forum members...this mean you Doug!

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=528098
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  #20  
Old 11-18-2018, 08:23 AM
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Hello guys again,

as I promised, I recorded a new song today. It's going to be in our next music video.

Here is the result:

https://soundcloud.com/luk-leng-l/mic_test/s-HxZYx

It is after postprocess... EQ, comp, reverb etc.

And here is, how I set up the microphones. I followed your advices and what you can hear is Lewitt in the center and Rodes panned hard to L and P. AKG is off, line from the guitar is off and you were right, it gets more brighter and cleaner sound. Still I feel bad for wasting that AKG :/




What do you think?
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  #21  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:51 PM
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What do you think?
This sounds pretty close to mono to me and rather indistinct. I'd go for a stereo image, and I'm wondering if there is a room acoustics issue. Or maybe it's how you have the mics mixed. Maybe post the raw tracks with no processing, and both pairs separately?
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Last edited by Doug Young; 11-18-2018 at 07:10 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:03 AM
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Thank you Doug, here it is:

https://soundcloud.com/luk-leng-l/se...d_test/s-6yKxg

Export of each audio file from Cubase without any effects. Just raw tracks.

I'm really dissapointed with it.. wish I could get the right sound. Here is the sound, I would like to have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNUcQ3QbqdY

It is so clear and bright. I would never belive, that the room has so massive impact of recording anything.
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  #23  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Larsis View Post
Thank you Doug, here it is:

https://soundcloud.com/luk-leng-l/se...d_test/s-6yKxg

Export of each audio file from Cubase without any effects. Just raw tracks.

I'm really dissapointed with it.. wish I could get the right sound. Here is the sound, I would like to have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNUcQ3QbqdY

It is so clear and bright. I would never belive, that the room has so massive impact of recording anything.
That's a very nice reference track. Tons of reverb, but a very direct guitar sound. Even your individual files sound indistinct and "fuzzy" for lack of a better word. Something's not right here. It may be your room acoustics, or something else. Could you:

1) make those files downloadable so I can more easily check them out (just select "Enable Downloads" under the Permissions tab after choosing Edit.)

2) I can't see from your photo how far away from the guitar you are. Try recording with just the rode mics 8-12 inches from the guitar, and I'd try spaced pairs - mics about 15-20 inches apart, like this:

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  #24  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:17 AM
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Mono sound. You are probably converting your stereo track (BTW I don't care much for XY. Try spaced pair or at least ORTF). Check your software setting for something that is causing mono - e.g. panning or some mono plug-in.
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  #25  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:43 AM
Larsis Larsis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Could you:

1) make those files downloadable so I can more easily check them out (just select "Enable Downloads" under the Permissions tab after choosing Edit.)

2) I can't see from your photo how far away from the guitar you are. Try recording with just the rode mics 8-12 inches from the guitar, and I'd try spaced pairs - mics about 15-20 inches apart, like this:
1) Sorry, I'm new on soundcloud. Now it is downloadable.

2) Unfortunately, I don't have such a photo. But from the microphones I'm about 1 foot away, maybe 2.

However I really think, I have to figure out by myself. Spend a lot of time trying positions, placement etc. But the room is a problem for me. This is the only 'silent' room in the house, but I can try it in others, but smaller rooms.

The reference track, I've posted is great. It seems, he does it just with two spaced pairs on each side and that is.
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  #26  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Mono sound. You are probably converting your stereo track (BTW I don't care much for XY. Try spaced pair or at least ORTF). Check your software setting for something that is causing mono - e.g. panning or some mono plug-in.
I'm using Cubase. Good idea, I'll give the eye on it. Thank you.
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  #27  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:51 AM
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I didn’t mean you should post a photo, I meant try recording with the mics placed like I showed in my photo
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2018, 11:35 AM
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The playlist no longer exists now?
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  #29  
Old 11-19-2018, 12:54 PM
Larsis Larsis is offline
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This should work https://soundcloud.com/luk-leng-l/se...d_test/s-rePM7
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  #30  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:34 PM
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OK, I took a quick look/listen.A few things:

Your levels are quite low. Not a show stopper, but I'd get them up a bit.

The guitar seems to be out of tune, especially the opening notes.

Your "line" track is distorted.

The Rode tracks are stereo if panned hard left and right, but the image is really narrow and the sound is harsh and thin.

I used the akg and lewitt as "spaced pairs" panned hard left and right, and those are much better. Still a bit of a thin harsh sound on top. May be room acoustics, may actually be the sound you're getting on the guitar? I'll PM you a dropbox link with this mix to see what you think. I put quite a bit of reverb on since you seemed to like that.

My guess is that you have room acoustic issues and need work on mic placement. Advice: I'd use the AKG and Lewitt as spaced pairs, put them around 12 inches from your guitar, 15-20 inches apart, and tweak that position till it sounds good. Drop the pickup unless you can get it to sound better and not distort. Carefully listen to your guitar to see if it actually sounds like what you want to start with. If possible, add some sound baffles to improve the acoustics. Figure out why your mix is coming out mono.

One other suggestion: It's great to have a reference track, but it's easiest to compare and learn something from it if you play something very similar, if not the same piece. Your example is radically different from your reference - you're asking about percussive guitar, but your piece isn't percussive at all, so it's hard to A/B between your track and your reference and reach any conclusions. I'd either find a reference you like that's more similar to the piece you're trying to record, or for sound check purposes, play something more like your reference (even if it's just 1 or 2 bars of something in the style). It's just hard to compare apples and oranges when you're making decisions about mic placement, mix, etc.
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Last edited by Doug Young; 11-19-2018 at 02:32 PM.
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