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  #46  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:55 AM
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I don't think of this as ORTF, tho I guess it's similar. The mics were about 10 inches apart and aimed outward, so I'm just considering this to be spaced pairs, with the mics aimed at upper and lower bout. When you're micing this close, I'm not sure the behavior of things like ORTF, NOS, etc, really come into play. The Brauner's in this example are 16 inches apart and aimed a bit inward, so that's the sort of opposite approach you're talking about, tho wider. But I'd call that spaced pairs as well.
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  #47  
Old 10-09-2018, 12:16 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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I don't think of this as ORTF, tho I guess it's similar. The mics were about 10 inches apart and aimed outward, so I'm just considering this to be spaced pairs, with the mics aimed at upper and lower bout. When you're micing this close, I'm not sure the behavior of things like ORTF, NOS, etc, really come into play. The Brauner's in this example are 16 inches apart and aimed a bit inward, so that's the sort of opposite approach you're talking about, tho wider. But I'd call that spaced pairs as well.
I watched your recording video on your website the other day and really enjoyed how you put the presentation together. So informative to see all the stages and the final outcome.
An interesting thought, since you already have the two samples with Schopes and Gefell M300's= It would be nice to hear each one of those with reverb added. I mention this because reverb adds a openness type feeling.
On the surface, the Schoeps seemingly has that openness over Gefells. In some ways I would term it in similar aspects of mahogany vs rosewood. There is an openness(overtones) to rosewood and a more fundamental on mahogany and maple(although, I have heard mahogany with openness as well. But on a primary level I think most agree that mahogany has a bit less Overtones than rosewood.) Some people feel that one style wood suits their music better.
So what I am wondering if there is any correlation between the effect of Reverb on a seemingly more fundamental recording of Gefell vereses a seemingly more open recording of the Schoeps.
Basically, it might be that with reverb, one mic will be more pronounced than the other.
Anyway, that is just a thought, have no experience in this area. But I do love reverb.
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  #48  
Old 10-09-2018, 12:30 PM
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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I always mike out further away, usually in the 18" to 22" range. Also usually employing a spaced pair arrangement, though occasionally some other unusual mike positions have given good results.
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  #49  
Old 10-09-2018, 04:29 PM
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I always mike out further away, usually in the 18" to 22" range. Also usually employing a spaced pair arrangement, though occasionally some other unusual mike positions have given good results.
That can be great, if it works for you. I've recorded in a few studios where even 3 feet back sounded great. In my room, I don't like the sound. From what I'vev observed, many fingerstyle recordings are done very close-mic'd, even closer than I usually use. But that's likely because most fingerstyle players are recording at home, not in big-budget studios.
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Last edited by Doug Young; 10-09-2018 at 05:06 PM.
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  #50  
Old 10-09-2018, 04:59 PM
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I
So what I am wondering if there is any correlation between the effect of Reverb on a seemingly more fundamental recording of Gefell vereses a seemingly more open recording of the Schoeps.
OK, here you go. I did a mixing pass on those 2 and added some reverb. Maybe heavier than I would myself, since you said you liked reverb :-)

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  #51  
Old 10-09-2018, 07:17 PM
Cocobolo Kid Cocobolo Kid is offline
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Thanks for posting this Doug. I really like the sound of the Schoeps on that guitar.
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  #52  
Old 10-09-2018, 09:10 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Great to hear. I hope to test out the MK21's some day. My purpose would be for closer micing with acoustic guitar. The Idea would be that even closed miked I would hear more of the entire guitar's vibrations yet still get some rear rejection.
Although, Doug & Michael Watts has proven that you can closer mic with ORTF without the omni like cap using cardiods. The key might be that the ORTF placement misses the majority of the sound hole air movement.
I would like to experiment with a reverse ORTF...so that I am pointed towards the sound hole in a spaced pair but still at that 8 inch spacing.
You'll definitely get more room in the mix from less directional mics, but you'll also get a less pronounced proximity effect. I think that's the real key. You can cozy up to the guitar a lot more without the excessive low end build up that a cardiod would exhibit.

I encourage you to experiment. You never know where it will lead. Keep your mind (and ears) open & have fun with it.
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  #53  
Old 10-10-2018, 02:05 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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OK, here you go. I did a mixing pass on those 2 and added some reverb. Maybe heavier than I would myself, since you said you liked reverb :-)

Well now the answer is even more clear to myself now, thanks to your adding of reverb to your recordings.
I would have loved for the Gefells to have offered something that would justify them to myself. I had hoped that there might have been a connection to Gefells meaty sound and the addition of reverb. After all they are nearly half the price as as Schoeps. Once or twice a year Vintage King runs a Pair at about $1500.
But I believe the Schoeps is a Clear winner, and in my opinion by a by a lot. I know that for my style of playing(and that is the key for all of us), that extra bit if openness is mandatory for my needs
Anyway...big, big help. Now I do not feel like I need to audition the Gefells anymore, and I can concentrate on A/Bing between Schoeps and Sankens.
Still some hope for the Sankens as they would be $800 cheaper a pair.
Never seems to be much of a discount on used Schoeps...so for just a little bit more I would buy a new pair.
I am still months away from saving up. But your Test has really helped out.
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  #54  
Old 10-10-2018, 02:08 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
You'll definitely get more room in the mix from less directional mics, but you'll also get a less pronounced proximity effect. I think that's the real key. You can cozy up to the guitar a lot more without the excessive low end build up that a cardiod would exhibit.

I encourage you to experiment. You never know where it will lead. Keep your mind (and ears) open & have fun with it.
Very Wise advice! Yes, enjoy the journey!
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  #55  
Old 10-10-2018, 02:38 PM
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Anyway...big, big help. Now I do not feel like I need to audition the Gefells anymore, and I can concentrate on A/Bing between Schoeps and Sankens.
Glad it was helpful, but keep in mind, this is just one sample, I'm not sure I'd just conclude that the Gefell's aren't worth trying. I've had the experience of recording something one day, being really happy with the sound, then sitting down at the same mics, same position, the next day, and not being able to get the same sound. I wouldn't be able to definitively say that any of the mics in this example are the "best", they can all work, might sound different in different placements, with different guitars, different rooms, a different tune or playing style, in a different phase of the moon, whatever. This of course, is how I end up with more mics (and guitars) than I really need, but there are worse problems to have :-)
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  #56  
Old 10-10-2018, 02:41 PM
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...[snip].... Now I do not feel like I need to audition the Gefells anymore, and I can concentrate on A/Bing between Schoeps and Sankens. ....[snip]....
Unless you consider including the Gefell M295 or M296 into your comparisons. They might compare better to the Schoeps. They’re in the range of $2500 a pair. Rick-slo has some great recordings using the M295.
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  #57  
Old 10-10-2018, 04:26 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Unless you consider including the Gefell M295 or M296 into your comparisons. They might compare better to the Schoeps. They’re in the range of $2500 a pair. Rick-slo has some great recordings using the M295.
I briefly owned a pair of 295's. Got a great deal on them. And they sounded wonderful on the high end. Actually quite spectacular. I know that they have Nickle capsules and are often compared to the old Neuman Km54 with nickle capsules.
However, I found the 295 a bit lacking in the low end for my needs. I play a dread with a reasonable amount of bass. One of the 295's went dead after a week...so I just returned both of them. Indeed the high end was wonderful and captured all kinds of detail. That great openness that I love. Perhaps if I had more time with those, I would have found that micing even closer would have made up for the Low end. I believe the 295's do have a heavy roll off on the low end.
However when I rented a Schoeps...I found myself missing the high end of the Gefells...ha ha....I just want it all.
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  #58  
Old 10-10-2018, 04:39 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Glad it was helpful, but keep in mind, this is just one sample, I'm not sure I'd just conclude that the Gefell's aren't worth trying. I've had the experience of recording something one day, being really happy with the sound, then sitting down at the same mics, same position, the next day, and not being able to get the same sound. I wouldn't be able to definitively say that any of the mics in this example are the "best", they can all work, might sound different in different placements, with different guitars, different rooms, a different tune or playing style, in a different phase of the moon, whatever. This of course, is how I end up with more mics (and guitars) than I really need, but there are worse problems to have :-)
I had found another comparison between the old standard Neumann KM84 and the Gefell M300. I was quite surprised at just how similar they actually are.
I had heard this from other people, but was a bit dubious as to there closeness until I heard a comparison myself.
I certainly would not turn down an audition of those mics...but I would rather concentrate between the Schoeps and the Sankens which I believe had the Openness that the KM84 or the Gefells M300's do not.
What exactly is openness, I could not say. Is it faster transient response? Is it capturing higher harmonics? Is it hearing things in between the lines?
I could not say. But there is no doubt in my mind after what I have heard that I need that openness. And time and time again, I hear it with the Schoeps.
I do not have the talent of finger dexterity that you and Michael have. However...I did have some classical training back in the sixties(actually took some lessons from our neighbor and lifelong friend, who was Segovia's number one understudy. Had the great pleasure of having Segovia and other greats of that time at private home parties. Of course..I was but fifteen at the time.)
I took some of that small training and combined it with heavy strumming for melodic rock. Letting a note-chord ring out, and dynamic touch is what gives me my signature on guitar. I am not great player in any way, but I get a sound. And representing that sound is everything to myself.
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  #59  
Old 10-10-2018, 05:33 PM
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...[snip].... I am not great player in any way, but I get a sound. And representing that sound is everything to myself.
That’s too funny, and as Foghorn Leghorn would say, “I resemble that remark.” And that’s why my recording chain was selected; for capturing my sound with as much realism as I could.
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  #60  
Old 10-10-2018, 05:55 PM
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Unless you consider including the Gefell M295 or M296 into your comparisons. They might compare better to the Schoeps. They’re in the range of $2500 a pair. Rick-slo has some great recordings using the M295.
Thanks Chuck. Here are a few examples via demo mp3s using the Gefell M295s. All recordings are of the same Blanchard guitar I have.
I usually mike a ways out for the sound I like.

http://dcoombsguitar.com/CDFive/WhereToDemo.mp3

http://dcoombsguitar.com/CDFive/BossameDemo.mp3

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Mu...eemoreDemo.mp3

http://dcoombsguitar.com/CDFive/BlackFeatherDemo.mp3
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Last edited by rick-slo; 10-10-2018 at 06:30 PM.
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