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  #61  
Old 02-17-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
It's probably partially due to the Bose system itself, and partially due to the attitude of those who use it. A bit hard to separate, IMO.
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Originally Posted by Murphy Slaw View Post
This...…….
Haha, what does that even mean?
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  #62  
Old 02-17-2019, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
IMO, when people use these Bose systems in a bar/restaurant, it becomes less of a "battle" between the music and those who DO want to talk. When people don't have the Bose system, they tend to turn up the music to drown out the chatter, which just leads to more volume from the patrons.
I make my my living playing music. Much of it in bar/restaurant situations. If I was having volume wars and "battling' patrons, my work would dry up pretty quickly.

As stated before, I can get an unobtrusive sound via EQ in situations where needed, and I can also get what I need out of my system to keep the dance floor full. I prefer a system that can do both.

It's not about attitude, it's about having the right tools for the job and knowing how to use them. Some of these systems are EQ'd to resist feedback and provide decent sound without really knowing how to properly EQ a room.

If you remove a lot of the problem frequencies with DSP, you can get by without having to do much knob twisting. I could see the appeal of that if I wanted to just plug in and play and not be concerned with any nuances.

I see a lot of people parroting back the hyperbole that companies print. It's definitely effective marketing!
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  #63  
Old 02-17-2019, 12:30 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by The Kid! View Post
I see a lot of people parroting back the hyperbole that companies print. It's definitely effective marketing!
I'm going by what I hear.

Those who use the Bose system almost never have the volume cranked so high that people are having to raise their voices much to continue their conversations.

Those who don't use the Bose system (either bring their own gear or use "house-supplied" gear . . with or without a house sound guy) almost always have the volume cranked so high that people have to raise their voices to continue their converstations . . . and it can become a bit of a "battle" . . . voices go up, raise the volume, etc.

There's always the exceptions . . . especially when a GOOD sound guy is available at the place. But I'd say most of those sound guys just crank the volume.

There's one particular group I've seen. When they perform as a duo, it doesn't matter so much if they use the Bose or not (they used to use the Bose, now they have "upgraded" to something else). But when they perform "full band" (4 or 5 people), they sounded much better to my ears back when they only used the Bose (and the amp for the upright bass). Their "upgraded" system is indeed a "fuller" and louder sound, but that doesn't necessarily turn into an improvement. And it's not . . at least not in my opinion.
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  #64  
Old 02-17-2019, 09:35 PM
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Man I don't know where you're from, but around here, we have some great sound engineers that really know how to mix, and get the best out of any desk and boxes that you throw their way. They are absolutely booked solid year round because they produce amazing and consistent results. None of them use portable column array systems, and as a result, you really have me wondering why that is with your devout support of said systems.

I also have seen people in restaurant bar scenarios be too loud with both column arrays as well as conventional PA gear. That has little to do with the hardware, and much more to do with the individual manipulating the controls of whatever gear is being utilized for the performance.

Again, these arrays can sound decent to flat out good in some scenarios, but don't work in all scenarios. Modular scalable PA gear with adequate EQ and someone that knows how to EQ a room, can produce far more consistent and dare I say, noticeably better results.

Now, true line arrays in the right setting are a thing of beauty. You aren't likely to find that in your typical bar gig though.

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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
Those who use the Bose system almost never have the volume cranked so high
Interesting. From where are you extrapolating this data?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
Those who don't use the Bose system ... almost always have the volume cranked so high that people have to raise their voices to continue their converstations
Wow.
Again, source(s)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
There's always the exceptions . . . especially when a GOOD sound guy is available at the place.
Worth their weight in gold. I imagine that this good sound guy is operating conventional sound equipment in your example, correct?

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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
But I'd say most of those sound guys just crank the volume.
Do you have a percentage, or is it it just most?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
There's one particular group I've seen. When they perform as a duo, it doesn't matter so much if they use the Bose or not
So it doesn't matter after all... they can't sound good either way.

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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
(they used to use the Bose, now they have "upgraded" to something else)\
Why is "upgraded," in quotes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
But when they perform "full band" (4 or 5 people), they sounded much better to my ears back when they only used the Bose (and the amp for the upright bass).
So the band that can't get a good sound with anything, sounded better "to your ears," with the Bose. Cool.

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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
Their "upgraded" system is indeed a "fuller" and louder sound, but that doesn't necessarily turn into an improvement.
Again with the "upgraded" in quotes, and now we've added "fuller," to the game. What are you "really" trying to say here?

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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
And it's not . . at least not in my opinion.
Oh, your "opinion." Ok, fair enough then.
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Last edited by The Kid!; 02-17-2019 at 09:47 PM.
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  #65  
Old 02-17-2019, 10:03 PM
lkingston lkingston is offline
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Keep in mind that several acoustic amps have pretty good mixers built in (even if they just have two channels). The Shertler Roy has a fantastic mixer with five great preamps and two DSP built in.
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  #66  
Old 02-18-2019, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kid! View Post
Man I don't know where you're from, but around here, we have some great sound engineers that really know how to mix, and get the best out of any desk and boxes that you throw their way. They are absolutely booked solid year round because they produce amazing and consistent results. None of them use portable column array systems, and as a result, you really have me wondering why that is with your devout support of said systems.
I tend to agree here.I think these bose systems are an interesting alternative.
And sound good in smaller rooms.
Its a perception of what you hear. I walk around a room and listen to a bose
and no matter where i am in the room i hear the same thing. This automatically
makes me like the system. But when i go to a concert and listen to any sound
engineer ( who never use an array) I have to say i like the sound better.
If i walk around the venue i get a different perspective of the sound depending
on where i am in the room. If i sit in front of the sound board it sounds the best
usually. The perception of what i hear is much better with a professional system. My perception of a bose in a loud bar is that i can hear it the same
no matter where i stand but the quality of what i hear is a bit sterile.
Not in a bad way just a perception.
I like the portability of the Bose. And the fact you can put it behind
you and use it as a monitor.
But i would rather listen to a well eq'd pair
of K12's Its always a bit of a tradeoff.

Last edited by varmonter; 02-18-2019 at 06:57 AM.
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  #67  
Old 02-18-2019, 08:37 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Originally Posted by JackB1 View Post
So if you are mostly performing solo....just you and your guitar and vocals...do you really need a mixer? Will it improve your overall sound or is it just to have more channels available if folks want to sit in? I am currently just plugging straight into my Fishman SA220 but wonder if adding a mixer will do anything for me?

thanks
If you do add a mixer, you can bypass the preamp sections of the two channels by going to the Monitor In, the EFX return of either channel or the Aux In. (Keep in mind that the SoloAmp's mute button doesn't work for the Aux In signal.)

I'm wondering if you could run three mics and three instruments to a single SA220 if you have something like a TC Helicon VoiceTone to preamp one of the mics and the instruments are all preamped (either onboard or offboard). I'm thinking that you could take the mics to the Channel 1 input, the Channel 2 input and the Monitor In (using the VoiceTone). I'm thinking that you could take the instruments to the Channel 1 EFX return, the Channel 2 EFX return and the Aux In.

I'm going to try an experiment with my own SoloAmp and see what happens when I run a mic to channel 1 and a guitar signal to the EFX return of channel 1.

I'll also try using my VoiceTone preamp to take a mic into Monitor In.

Last edited by guitaniac; 02-18-2019 at 08:46 AM.
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  #68  
Old 02-18-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
If you do add a mixer, you can bypass the preamp sections of the two channels by going to the Monitor In, the EFX return of either channel or the Aux In. (Keep in mind that the SoloAmp's mute button doesn't work for the Aux In signal.)

I'm wondering if you could run three mics and three instruments to a single SA220 if you have something like a TC Helicon VoiceTone to preamp one of the mics and the instruments are all preamped (either onboard or offboard). I'm thinking that you could take the mics to the Channel 1 input, the Channel 2 input and the Monitor In (using the VoiceTone). I'm thinking that you could take the instruments to the Channel 1 EFX return, the Channel 2 EFX return and the Aux In.

I'm going to try an experiment with my own SoloAmp and see what happens when I run a mic to channel 1 and a guitar signal to the EFX return of channel 1.

I'll also try using my VoiceTone preamp to take a mic into Monitor In.
You could technically do it but the Fishman SOLOamp was really designed for a solo performer. Once you get into this territory, I'd use a mixer with a decent powered speaker or set of speakers.
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  #69  
Old 02-18-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kid! View Post
You could technically do it but the Fishman SOLOamp was really designed for a solo performer. Once you get into this territory, I'd use a mixer with a decent powered speaker or set of speakers.
A mixer would be simpler for sure, and you could bypass the preamp section unless you need the use of the SoloAmp channel's EQ, notch, phase reversal or reverb.

Until this thread, however, it never occurred to me that the SoloAmp might actually (if push came to shove) be able to accommodate three mics and three instrument cables.
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  #70  
Old 02-18-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
A mixer would be simpler for sure, and you could bypass the preamp section unless you need the use of the SoloAmp channel's EQ, notch, phase reversal or reverb.

Until this thread, however, it never occurred to me that the SoloAmp might actually (if push came to shove) be able to accommodate three mics and three instrument cables.
It’s certainly possible, but you might end up pushing it to its limits depending on how loud you’re turning it up. They sound good for solo work, but you won’t know if they’ll hold up to more inputs until you try.
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  #71  
Old 02-18-2019, 05:32 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by varmonter View Post
I walk around a room and listen to a bose
and no matter where i am in the room i hear the same thing. This automatically makes me like the system. . . . My perception of a bose in a loud bar is that i can hear it the same no matter where i stand but the quality of what i hear is a bit sterile. Not in a bad way just a perception.

I like the portability of the Bose. And the fact you can put it behind
you and use it as a monitor.
Exactly.

And the "single performer" type doesn't have to be a "sound man" to make the thing sound good. Whatever voodoo they've put in there seems to always work well (or certainly "good enough") in a reasonably small (100 people or less) venue every time I've heard it used.

Could a "good" sound system and a "good" sound engineer make it sound even better? Quite possible. But those are routinely in short supply in most of the restaurants/bars where I listen to music. Not in all of them, but in a very large percentage of them the performer is expected to bring his own sound gear and set it up and run it and tear it down.

Some singer/songwriters are also very good sound guys (I know one or two), but most aren't, and I think they benefit with a system like the Bose.
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  #72  
Old 02-18-2019, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kid! View Post
Man I don't know where you're from, but around here, we have some great sound engineers that really know how to mix, and get the best out of any desk and boxes that you throw their way.
Yes, there are venues like that, but there are plenty of venues that have neither a good sound system NOR a good sound engineer.


Quote:
Modular scalable PA gear with adequate EQ and someone that knows how to EQ a room, can produce far more consistent and dare I say, noticeably better results.
But most singer/songwriters, in my experience, are NOT good sound engineers. That's where the Bose system (and perhaps others like it, I simply haven't heard the competition in that market yet) is great, IMO, for the individual performer. And that's what I assumed the OP is . . . based on the question.

Quote:
Why is "upgraded," in quotes? . . . Again with the "upgraded" in quotes,
Because by any technical specs, these systems would certainly appear better . . . on paper . . . and almost certainly if used correctly by a good sound engineer. But the reality that I've experienced is that the Bose has huge advantages for the single performer or duo.


Quote:
Oh, your "opinion." Ok, fair enough then.
Well, everything in this thread is in the opinion of the person posting it, I'd say.
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  #73  
Old 02-18-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post

Well, everything in this thread is in the opinion of the person posting it, I'd say.
Sure, as long as one doesn't confuse hyperbole with facts.
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Last edited by The Kid!; 02-18-2019 at 09:58 PM.
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  #74  
Old 02-18-2019, 10:26 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
If you do add a mixer, you can bypass the preamp sections of the two channels by going to the Monitor In, the EFX return of either channel or the Aux In. (Keep in mind that the SoloAmp's mute button doesn't work for the Aux In signal.)

I'm wondering if you could run three mics and three instruments to a single SA220 if you have something like a TC Helicon VoiceTone to preamp one of the mics and the instruments are all preamped (either onboard or offboard). I'm thinking that you could take the mics to the Channel 1 input, the Channel 2 input and the Monitor In (using the VoiceTone). I'm thinking that you could take the instruments to the Channel 1 EFX return, the Channel 2 EFX return and the Aux In.

I'm going to try an experiment with my own SoloAmp and see what happens when I run a mic to channel 1 and a guitar signal to the EFX return of channel 1.

I'll also try using my VoiceTone preamp to take a mic into Monitor In.
I gave it a try tonight and learned that plugging into a channel's EFX return jack kills the channel's mic input. There may be a way to hack around it (a Y connector, possibly), but I'm hesitant to mess around too much with stuff which I don't understand. I could end up harming the SoloAmp.

On the plus side, using a TC Helicon VoiceTone pedal to take a mic signal to the Monitor In works well. That makes four inputs (including Aux In) which a SoloAmp user could use simultaneously in a pinch.
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  #75  
Old 02-19-2019, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by varmonter View Post
I tend to agree here.I think these bose systems are an interesting alternative.
And sound good in smaller rooms.
Its a perception of what you hear. I walk around a room and listen to a bose
and no matter where i am in the room i hear the same thing. This automatically
makes me like the system. But when i go to a concert and listen to any sound
engineer ( who never use an array) I have to say i like the sound better.
If i walk around the venue i get a different perspective of the sound depending
on where i am in the room. If i sit in front of the sound board it sounds the best
usually. The perception of what i hear is much better with a professional system. My perception of a bose in a loud bar is that i can hear it the same
no matter where i stand but the quality of what i hear is a bit sterile.
Not in a bad way just a perception.
I like the portability of the Bose. And the fact you can put it behind
you and use it as a monitor.
But i would rather listen to a well eq'd pair
of K12's Its always a bit of a tradeoff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
Exactly.

And the "single performer" type doesn't have to be a "sound man" to make the thing sound good. Whatever voodoo they've put in there seems to always work well (or certainly "good enough") in a reasonably small (100 people or less) venue every time I've heard it used.

Could a "good" sound system and a "good" sound engineer make it sound even better? Quite possible. But those are routinely in short supply in most of the restaurants/bars where I listen to music. Not in all of them, but in a very large percentage of them the performer is expected to bring his own sound gear and set it up and run it and tear it down.

Some singer/songwriters are also very good sound guys (I know one or two), but most aren't, and I think they benefit with a system like the Bose.
I hate to be mis- quoted like i was in post 71 . Just to be clear i prefer the sound of a pair
of powered speakers to a bose system any day all day.
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