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  #136  
Old 10-20-2018, 07:57 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by RRuskin View Post
The FMR Audio RNP is a great little unit. Street price is about $475 for a 2-channel unit. I had a client who swore by them for everything including his old RCA 44BX ribbon.
I know a few people with small studios who use those. They are a good value.
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  #137  
Old 10-20-2018, 08:08 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
This is wonderful information...as this is something that I could easily afford and gets me into a the Tube pre to experiment with...Nice to have alternatives.
What about the company that mods the Art? are you
familiar with that.
http://www.reviveaudio.com/index.php...product_id=197
I was not familiar with that company. I took a quick look and noticed that the unit they are dealing with is not the original Pro MPA that I was talking about. That was a mark II version. I can't vouch for that version.

Oh and another old one that was much better than it should have been for the price was the JoeMeek VC3Q (preamp, EQ & compressor in a half-rack). Again, this is a discontinued model that was about $400 new back in the mid-'90s and now can be had for a song. I liked them because they had character without getting in the way. I had a few of those that I used for live recordings because I could stick them on stage and plug just about anything into them. They were work-horses & built solid.
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  #138  
Old 10-21-2018, 02:18 AM
Karel Karel is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Spend a couple of grand upping the room acoustics. Be prepared to record the same piece a few times with mike positioning variations and go with the best.
Rick, my small studio has been fully treated, up to a point where it is dead flat. The problem for me is (and that's probably the same for most amateurs like me) that I am recording and mixing in the same room. For vocals and mixing it is pretty well suited but for recording acoustic guitar I could use a larger space and more room ambience. The only thing I can do is rolling up the carpet. Before I cut the knot and ordered the Gefell M 300's I did quite some experimenting with my U87 to find out if that would suffice for my acoustic guitar. But it did not provide much (more) room ambience (for obvious reasons) and left me with a mono track. I value your advice highly and will certainly do a lot with mic positioning variations as soon as I get my Gefells.
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  #139  
Old 10-25-2018, 03:00 PM
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I followed up with the promised preamp shootout. Certainly nothing definitive, just a home comparison, hope it's interesting to some. I created a new thread, because this one's gotten pretty long:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/....php?p=5872466
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  #140  
Old 10-28-2018, 02:57 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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This particular thread has opened up whole new concepts for myself. I thank you so much Doug for doing this review...and all the wonderful people who have joined in.
I would like to offer up some of my newest theories, since this thread changed the way I was thinking about my future microphone purchases. For myself, it was obvious for my needs the Schoeps is most likely what I will eventually get. it seems I always come back to determining that Schoeps is what I need.
The Big Difference now, is I have totally reconsidered what capsules will be right for myself.
From my point of view, I was convinced that micing from a closer distance is important. And I am still convinced of this. For many reasons. However the primary reason is the way I angle my guitar up towards my head when I play. I want to hear the guitar recorded as I hear it, not the audience. Measuring I find that the distance is somewhere in the 11 to 12 inches from my ears. As you know at that distance Proximity effect can be a huge factor.
I have worked hard over the past four years, two find a guitar with the exact sound I was looking for. The Top wood, back and sides, strings,Bridge pins, Saddle material and even tuners( I use Gotoh Locking tuners). I want to hear the guitar pretty much the way I hear it. Although, I know one can never achieve exactness. A close proximity is the best I can hope for. Or...a close proximity to what I dream it should sound like...ha ha..
Previously I was convinced that A wide cardiod would suit my purposes. I was convinced of this because a Wide Cardiod should be able to mic closer and not have as much proximity effect. After all, Omni's do not have to worry too much about proximity effect and a wide cardiod has some of the characteristics of omni. However, It is not possible on my budget to test out a wide variety of microphones at one time. And to boot, I am still dealing with a poor interface and needed room acoustic modifications. Still, regardless of the weak links in my chain...High quality microphones will be necessary at some point in time. And on my list..while I know others place other factors as more important, microphones are paramount in my world of thought.
Now thanks to Doug and others...I realize that Wide Cardiod might not be the correct answer for myself. A microphone polar pattern that I would have never have thought would be right...I am now really considering...Hypercardiods.
Many, Many engineers solutions are to just listen to each microphone. And yes, that is one of the best solutions. But since that is not completely possible for myself...I like to study graphs. But until recently, I did not really understand how to look at a graph-polar pattern properly. Now, I think I do...all brought on by this nice comparison test of Doug's.
Several times on this thread different people mentioned about the 641 great off axis response. Funny, I had always associated omni's with the best off axis response. It did not make sense that a hyper card would have such great off axis response. Until...I studied the charts. very revealing!
For stereo, the graphs and patterns, And what I have heard from Doug's recordings, indicate to myself that the Hyper is a strong contender for its ability to mic close and reproduce off axis. After all, when you are micing closer, Off Axis response might be one of the most important considerations? The closer you mic, the more important Off Axis should become.
Below is what I perceive from these charts and of course I have included the charts.
Schoeps 641= 2 db difference between 4/8/16 at 60 degrees
&2.5 db at 80 degrees
Schoeps 64 = slightly less…retaining only 2 db up to 90 degrees

Schoeps 621= almost 5 db difference at 80 & 90 degrees
Which, might explain why there is a high frequency bump
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Gefell Polar graph was too small to post-and a little bit confusing on the DB line ratio=Not sure of the increments…but their 1hz/8hz/16hz graph shows a 5 to 10 DB difference between the 8 &16 hz at 60 degrees alone. and very dramatic at 90 degrees.
Again a possibility as to why the High refreq bump works with this mic. And also combined with ceramic housing and low frequency roll off allows for closer mixing without as much proximity effect?
Mitek C-5 does not have an in depth polar graph…but its frequency graph looks similar to the the Gefell.
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Down 4.5 db’s between the 8hz & 16 hz at 60 degrees
Down 6 db’s at 70 degrees.
But oddly comes back to only 3.5 difference at 90 degrees
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  #141  
Old 10-28-2018, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
I want to hear the guitar recorded as I hear it, not the audience.
Some people record with the mics over their shoulder, to get close to what they hear. I've never liked the results, but some people do make it work. Worth a try if that's your goal.

I
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  #142  
Old 10-28-2018, 04:13 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Off-axis response is more important when recording with mic pair placements such as X-Y, ORTF, MS and Blumlein. This is because the front of the mics are not pointing directly at the source. Off-axis response is less important when the mic placements point the capsules directly at the source.

There are other factors that effect things beyond that, such as the mics' distance from the source, their separation from each other and, of course, room reflections.
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  #143  
Old 10-28-2018, 04:22 PM
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Some proximity effect and some off axis frequency response variation may be a helpful and beneficial thing or not. It depends. Start recording and experimenting.
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  #144  
Old 10-28-2018, 04:28 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Some people record with the mics over their shoulder, to get close to what they hear. I've never liked the results, but some people do make it work. Worth a try if that's your goal.

I
Soundpure has a number of great recordings with one of the mics being over the shoulder. But like yourself...I did not find it works great for myself. Many of the recording I have seen by them, the guitarist is backed up to a brick wall. A more live sound is being recorded.
However...this does bring up an interesting point. I believe that there is a strong possibility that one of the reason why it works is because the microphones are somewhat 90 degrees of each other.
When I start experimenting again..a few months from now...that will be one of my goals...to used spaced pairs at 90 degrees to each other. There have been claims that this gets rid of the phasing problems. Similar, but different from X/Y famous non phasing issues in mono. X/Y success is mostly recognized as Capsules being in the closest space possible to one another. Thus sound reaching both mics at the same time to reduce phase issues. However, if that was solely the case, then they would not also put the mics at 90 degrees to one another. So I have some suspicions 90 degree theme might have some strong value.
What I am wondering Doug, is if the 641 Hyper pattern also helps against phase issues? As the pattern is tighter...Thus each microphone is hearing less of what the other microphone is covering? a possibility anyway.
Maybe sometime early 2019 after NAMM, I could come up and act as Microphone mover for you...and we can go all out( I am hoping to come up and visit my great friend Benny at BJR guitars). Easier to have someone moving the mics an inch or two, a degree or two than having to put down the guitar and move each time.
By the Way...will you be going to NAMM...would love to meet up.
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  #145  
Old 10-28-2018, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Start recording and experimenting.
That's my approach, too. Specs are nice, but just like guitars, all that matters is how it sounds in the end. There are just too many variables, so it's better not to get too carried away with some technical details - moving your picking hand an inch on the guitar changes everything, where you sit in the room can change things, on and on.

BTW, K&G, you mention you hold the guitar differently, and I recorded a guy some years ago who held his guitar like I think you're describing. The common mic setups didn't work well for him, at least, and I ended up doing the often recommended approach of listening in headphones while moving the mics around, and came up with something we thought sounded really good, but that was unique to his guitar orientation. You might enlist a friend and try that.
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  #146  
Old 10-28-2018, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
What I am wondering Doug, is if the 641 Hyper pattern also helps against phase issues?
I barely worry about phase "issues". When using spaced pairs, phase differences are what creates the stereo sound, so it's a feature, not a bug. It's only an issue if you sum to mono, and I'm not interested in doing that. I do sometimes check by pushing the mono button, and also spot check correlation meters, just to make sure things aren't too far out of whack, but in general, if you have the mics spaced fairly equal distance from the guitar and the levels are balanced, phase just doesn't become a problem. If I do anticipate wanting to mix to mono, or if I think a track might be played back mono (no idea where that would happen these days...) I use Mid-Side, which guarantees I'll be OK if collapsed to mono.

Quote:
Maybe sometime early 2019 after NAMM, I could come up and act as Microphone mover for you...
By the Way...will you be going to NAMM...would love to meet up.
Always glad to have a visitor. At this point, I don't expect to go to NAMM - it's often fun, and there's more acoustic-related than there used to be, but it's too much of a cacophony for my taste.
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