The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #136  
Old 12-16-2014, 11:50 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,475
Default

I really didn't do much to Anton's tracks. I loaded them into Logic, routed a bus to my reverb (Bricasti M7), pushed the channel levels up and used Ozone 6's maximizer plugin with just the tiniest amount of limiting. Adjusted levels (volume sliders) until the mix was close to 0 db peaks.

It was interesting working on this remotely with Anton. I think all 3 mics sound quite good once he got placement down. The ADK track is also night and day from what he started with. I preferred the Gefell's, but it's a close call. Most of the improvement was from Anton trying different mic positions. He ended up quite wider in placement than I usually do - and oddly, I tried to mimic his setups, and got a wider sound from narrow mic placements than him. Different room, different guitar, different player, who knows? Just goes to show you can't necessarily replicate what someone else does and get the same result.

I also worked with Anton to get some noise measurements relative to a reference. The KM184's were the least noisy, the Gefell's measure at 2.5 db more noise, for whatever reason. The ADK's had 5.2 db more noise, so pretty substantial, and that fits what I've heard before from the ADKs. However, much of the added noise was in sub-guitar frequencies, so perhaps the ADKs are picking up some low frequency rumble the other mics aren't. I knocked off everything below 60Hz, and with that, the Gefell's had 0.7 db more noise than the KM184s and the ADK was only 1.7 db noisier. This was a rather rough experiment, I can't be sure how much of these differences is actual mic self-noise vs somehow picking up Anton's environmental noise differently.

Maybe Anton will post the other tracks. My preference was Gefell's, then KM184s, the ADKs, but it's quite possible I'm being biased, and I didn't listen to anything blind. I might even change my mind if I listened again. The ADK's sound perfectly fine, and other than perhaps a bit more noise, I could easily imagine someone preferring the ADK track.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 12-17-2014, 08:16 AM
ChuckS's Avatar
ChuckS ChuckS is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 2,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anton View Post
Sdelsorey here on the forum was kind enough to lend me pair of KM 184's and Gefell M300's. Here is a sample of the Gefells going straight into my Zoom H6. First is the raw track then a mix by Doug Young.

https://soundcloud.com/antonemery/sets/gefell-m300-mics

Mics are in a spaced pair about 20" away and 24" apart. I'm pretty happy withe the result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
....[snip]...... Most of the improvement was from Anton trying different mic positions. He ended up quite wider in placement than I usually do - and oddly, I tried to mimic his setups, and got a wider sound from narrow mic placements than him. Different room, different guitar, different player, who knows? Just goes to show you can't necessarily replicate what someone else does and get the same result.

....[snip]......
Anton,
With your mic placement of 20" away and 24" apart, did you pan the tracks hard left and hard right, or do something else?
__________________
Chuck

2012 Carruth 12-fret 000 in Pernambuco and Adi
2010 Poling Sierra in Cuban Mahogany and Lutz
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 12-17-2014, 10:23 AM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,475
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Anton,
With your mic placement of 20" away and 24" apart, did you pan the tracks hard left and hard right, or do something else?
My suspicion was that Anton was panning inwards somehow, perhaps by accident. But he sent me the raw files right out of his zoom, so there was no chance of panning. I think we'd have to be together in person to chase this down further, but ultimately it ended up that Anton needed to place the mics further apart than I'd expect for the sound he wants.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 12-17-2014, 11:42 AM
anton anton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 561
Default

Thanks folks. i am indeed happy with the final sound. Ill post the other mic examples later this afternoon. I know I have said it before, but thanks a million to Doug for the endless emails back and forth helping me with this. And to Sdelsoray for lending me the mics. I am lucky to have such great friends.

As far as gear, it was just my guitar (Alberico OM Sitka/RW), the various mics used, straight into my Zoom H6. No expensive preamps or converters. Here is my setup with the ADK's. I am using Alaska picks on two of my fingers.



I thought maybe I was unknowingly doing some weird to the track in regards to getting a wide enough image. But as Doug said, the raw track straight off the Zoom was the same. I had the two inputs set to record to one stereo track, one mic in my left ear, one mic in my right. So who knows.

Both pairs of mics are for sale, at a fair price. I would love to buy the Gefells. But I can't really swing or justify that level of a purchase right now. Sure they sound smoother than some of the cheaper options. But it is subtle, and only really noticeable an in A/B comparison. Its like you can get 99% of the way there with cheaper gear (look at Doug's latest thread on a budget setup), and then for every bit of improvement after that its many hundreds of dollars. Maybe one day down the road I can buy some more expensive mics.

I am going to look for a quieter option than the ADK's. I dont know if its self noise, sensitivity, or what, but they are noisier than the other two. Heck, with the results Doug is getting I should just buy a pair of 2020's and call it a day.
__________________
Celtic Fingerstyle Guitar
Youtube
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 12-17-2014, 10:06 PM
anton anton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 561
Default

One more post, then Ill sign off on this thread. Unless someone wants to ask questions, that is. Which I am happy to answer.

Here is a playlist of the other two pairs of mics, my ADK A6's and Neumann KM 184's. Placement is the same as the Gefells, into my Zoom H6.

ADK A6 Recording

KM 184 Recording

My initial placement with the ADK's is a different tune, as I did it before talking with Doug about all this.

I hope this is useful to some folks. My purpose behind borrowing these mics was to see if the improvement they offered was worth spending $1000+. At this point I decided no, mostly because I just cant justify that expense right now. Do they sound better? I think so. The Gefells are smoother to my ear, especially when you A/B them. Maybe down the road I can afford something like that.
__________________
Celtic Fingerstyle Guitar
Youtube
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=