"Zizzing" open high e & B - Nut repair & Nut Materials

[fitness1]

If they are original nuts on the guitars - take it to a VERY experienced tech and have him cut new bone nuts for both. Make sure he knows what is going on first, of course.

Been through this a few times myself. Even with very expensive one-off guitars.

[jonfields45]

I discovered that the X-acto fine saw is 12 mils and bought one at the local art supply store. I filled the HD-28V's high-e slot with bone dust and solidified it with a bit of cyanoacrylate. I cut the slot and it plays perfectly. It remains to be seen how long it lasts.

I am guessing that the GC8's new bone nut has a soft spot at the B-string and the new bone nut in the HD-28V has a soft spot at the high-e.

If the repair holds I'll fix the GC8 the same way. I am a retired EE and do pickup installations and basic setups for many friends (which includes making saddles from bone blanks), but not much nut work. I do have some nut files I must have bought decades ago but they only went to 0.016" and the X-acto saw minimally completes the set for only a few dollars.

However I do have plenty of bone and TUSQ in my parts bin and I am concluding that TUSQ is more reliably hard when I experiment by poking my samples with a sharp tool (hardly scientific and I am hoping someone reading this can confirm or set me straight). If this repair fails I plan to try a pre-slotted TUSQ nut which is within my wood working skill set and a material the local repair people seem to shun (I wonder if this is feeding the prejudice of their customers or whether bone is easier to work or genuinely sounds better).

[pops]

While bone is the preferred material it is not perfect and has pockets that are not hard and are subject to wear. Tusq being man made is an even density. You should be able to dress the nut slot slightly. If it is too deep then rather than make a new nut for one string I would inlay a small piece of bone under the one string and cut a new slot.

[jonfields45]

I think I've finally figured this out. My RainSongs, according to the other guy in my duo don't ziz. His D-28V (open high E) and GC8E (open B string) do. I put some CA glue in the D-28V's high E nut slot and re-cut it with a 12 mil Exacto blade and he claimed it was better for a day or so. In hindsight, maybe the glue deadened the string a little.

I finally broke down and ordered the Tusq molded nut for a Martin 28 with the 90 degree bottom and installed it yesterday (since Tusq is what is on the RainSongs). I set the nut height by sanding its bottom to retain the molded slots. Of course after a perfect install I decided the Martin stock nut height was too high, over compensated and then had to glue a Sapele veneer to the bottom of the nut (I decided to press fit the nut at this point rather than risk gluing the veneer to the guitar).

Still zizzing.

Finally it occurred to me that he said the zizzing was dependent on where he picks. I ask him to measure and it is 5+ inches from the D-28 saddle. I then ask him to play a harmonic at that position and it is exactly the location of the 5th harmonic (which the math says is two octaves plus a major third, not the absolute musical garbage of the 7th harmonic...assuming I did the arithmetic correctly). He agrees now that the answer is to not strum in that position. Luckily 5th harmonic sweet spots are far enough apart to make that practical.

On my RainSongs, that 5th harmonic is not very strong which either speaks to the acoustic goodness of his wooden guitars...or the goodness of the RainSongs :~).

[charles Tauber]

Whenever someone states that "it happens with all of his guitars", I look to the player, not the instruments. The commonality in that situation is the player, not the setup of the individual instruments.

[jonfields45]

He has a 1941 000-21 and a rosewood bridge plate D-18S that do not ziz. My guess is it has something to do with the ergonomics (strumming 5 inches from the bridge would not be comfortable on my 12 fret RainSong). And something to do with the instrument; is that harmonic strong enough to be annoying.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

He has a 1941 OM-21 and a rosewood bridge plate D-18S that do not ziz.

Then it isn't, as you initially stated, "seems to happen on all of his guitars".

On a guitar that it does happen, does it happen when someone else plays that guitar (i.e. is it repeatable, regardless of player)? If yes, it is likely instrument-related: if no, it is likely player-related.

[SpruceTop]

Zizzing may be what I call the string-ping/sitar effect. It's like a metallic overtone along with the normal string tone and in my experience seems to occur mostly on the 3rd and 4th strings. Likely nut slots and compensated bridge-saddles are the biggest contributor to this annoyance, and if present, can be even more annoying when amplifying an acoustic guitar.

[John Arnold]

This is a very common problem in my shop. It is accentuated by playing style and obsessive listeners.
My best fix does not involve bone dust or baking soda. I deepen and widen the slot, glue in a piece of ivory with CA and recut the slot with a razor saw and a Stew Mac gauged nut file.
Ivory is a much more consistent material than bone. Scraps from old Martin saddles and nuts assures a reliable supply for nut slot repairs.

TUSQ may be very uniform, but the sound is not something I want to hear in most guitars.......particularly when used for a saddle.

He has a 1941 OM-21

000-21. Martin did not make OM's between 1934 and the 1970's.

[nitram]

I had a similar "zizzle" and found a solution on mine that involved sanding (filing?) the saddle so that the string meets it on a slope rather than a point. Worked for my situation. Another scenario is using fingernails to pluck or strum-I sometimes get a metallic zing but not with a pick. Sounds like a weird harmonic at play.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

000-21. Martin did not make OM's between 1934 and the 1970's.

My mistake, it is a 000-21.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Whenever someone states that "it happens with all of his guitars", I look to the player, not the instruments. The commonality in that situation is the player, not the setup of the individual instruments.

Yeah, I got more detail (or got the details right :~) as I spent more time listening to him complain :~). To my ear, what he is complaining about is just part of what makes an acoustic guitar sound like it does. The fact that it was so irritating to him kept me thinking about it and willing to try an experiment...that failed.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by nitram

I had a similar "zizzle" and found a solution on mine that involved sanding (filing?) the saddle so that the string meets it on a slope rather than a point. Worked for my situation. Another scenario is using fingernails to pluck or strum-I sometimes get a metallic zing but not with a pick. Sounds like a weird harmonic at play.

I did check the saddle and it has a nice rounded uncompensated top that was only very slightly notched by the strings on the pin side. He mostly commented on the open string tone, the fretted notes were OK or less pronounced. Thus I thought it was the nut.

[jonfields45]

One more thought... His 000-21 somewhere in its life had the bridge plate replaced with something similar in size to the rosewood bridge plate era Martins but a bit thicker. His D-18S is factory stock with the over sized rosewood bridge plate. Possible both of these guitars, like my RainSongs, don't put out enough 5th harmonic (open high E and B strings) to trigger his perception of a problem.

I've played both guitars and the 000-21 seems somewhat quiet. The D-18S is big and wonderful sounding (though I guess scalloped and small bridge plated it might be even better).

And for what it's worth, in addition to not remarking on the lower string height at the nut, he did not note any tone difference with the Tusq nut (compared to the older bone one).

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

This is a very common problem in my shop. It is accentuated by playing style and obsessive listeners.
My best fix does not involve bone dust or baking soda. I deepen and widen the slot, glue in a piece of ivory with CA and recut the slot with a razor saw and a Stew Mac gauged nut file.
Ivory is a much more consistent material than bone. Scraps from old Martin saddles and nuts assures a reliable supply for nut slot repairs.

TUSQ may be very uniform, but the sound is not something I want to hear in most guitars.......particularly when used for a saddle.


.

You do surprise me, John.

I had thought that in this day and age,when it came to repairing nut slots, the days of baking soda and superglue, and gluing in infills (of whatever material) had long passed ,and that common practice was to use UV cured dental composite, which is a hell of a lot harder and more consistent than bone or ivory, and is practically indistinguishable from the original material, if you have a decent set of color matches.

I make no comment on your use of ivory.