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  #46  
Old 03-28-2008, 09:12 PM
rainsong rainsong is offline
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Originally Posted by open-road-matt View Post
I played through one at an open mic last month that was poorly set up. They were running everything through an external mixer with tons of verb. I had a very hard time hearing myself and I've been using one of these since 2005.

Just my two cents,
Matt
You may have hit the nail on the head. THey were running through an external mixer and had much more verb than I would have used. I'm not saying my one experience is enough to judge. I think Rick Turner talks highly of these and I value his opinion and experience. Perhaps I was just expecting so much from a $4000 sound sytem verses mine that was roughly half that I was setting myself up for disappointment. Or, perhaps I was subconciously wanting the system to sound bad so I wouldn't be gassing for a $4000 sound system. And Cake is right, I have heard some horrendous sounding standard "high end" JBL PA systems as well.
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  #47  
Old 03-28-2008, 09:29 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Cakes View Post
When you talk about some of the lengths these high end speaker makers go, you get into the territory of audiophiles - people who swear their speakers sound better with monster cable vs radio shack speaker wire. And there is truth the to the idea that a superior speaker can produce superior nuance and warmth - I get that. But in order for an audience and average musician who just wants clear sound for him/herself and his audience, to really appreciate the warmth and nuancei of a high-end speaker, one needs an ideal listening environment, perfect positioning within the speaker's sweet spot and a virtually silent atmosphere.

I'm genuinely curious what a digital artifact is and how it is quantified and how it is isolated as a byproduct of the loudspeaker itself vs the preamp vs the input device. Also, sound is subjective admitedly.

But I sometimes can't help but wonder why people automatically blame the bad sound they may have heard on the speaker alone. There's such a thing as garbage in / garbage out. And there are limitless input devices and ways adjust and optimize (and ruin) the sound.

And like Matt said earlier, most (though not all) who have negative opinions with the L1's have much more limited experience with them. Sure, maybe they've played one at Guitar Center or even giged a couple times and/or heard a band. Sorry, but that's simply not (necessarily) an adequate basis to dismiss the quality of sound and viability of the solution.

Doesn't mean everyone will like it - different strokes for different folks. But because I am personally aware of countless musicians and audience members who have absolute confidence in the L1, I can't give much weight to the naysayers opinions. They're entitled to dislike the L1, certainly. But typically (not always), their experience is limited and often times there's a perfectly good reason unrelated to the speaker quality itself that explains the poor output.

Just my opinion.

John
A digital artifact is the product of digital processing. Digital processing occurs when an analog signal is converted, via an analog to digital converter, to digital, the digital stream is manipulated, adjusted, etc. in the digital realm, and the processed digital stream is converted back to analog via a digital to analog converter. Depending on the quality of the converters, the processing, etc., you end up with sonic artifacts, which were created in the digital realm, and which are heard once the signal is converted back to analog. How many/much/intense the artifacts are depends on the quality of the digital part of the signal chain.

The Bose L1 contains a digital signal chain. Everything is converted to digital and back again. Indeed, if you use a Tone Engine with the older L1, it happens twice - analog => digital => analog => digital => analog => your ear. It produces artifacts. They're not too bad, and are certainly less noticeable than the plethora of cheap digital boxes out there, but they're more present than when compared to high end digital products. Kinda middle-of-the-road.

As to use of the L1, it's not a magic box. It takes al of 10 minutes to figure it out, perhaps 30 minutes to run it through it's paces, at least that's all it took for me with a solo acoustic guitar.

A near perfect storm exists in most sound reinforcement situations, with the historical use of cheap PAs in horrible rooms, along with the .mp3, iPod and computer speaker listening expectations of many in the audience. The Bose L1 has moved that sorry state of affairs forward quite a bit.

Nevertheless, audiophile level sound, although not common, will continue to be around for some.
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  #48  
Old 03-29-2008, 08:19 AM
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open-road-matt open-road-matt is offline
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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
As to use of the L1, it's not a magic box. It takes al of 10 minutes to figure it out, perhaps 30 minutes to run it through it's paces, at least that's all it took for me with a solo acoustic guitar.
But that's you. If we look at your posts and the system you've put together, it's quite clear, at least to me, that you have the ear and the experience to get the L1 or any system, to sound as good as it can for your music.

The folks that are setting these things up in various bars and restaurants, and running everything through a cheap mixer with too much verb night after night have never taken the time to really figure it out. And for some reason, perhaps because the L1 is different or perhaps because of the Bose name, I'm not sure why but people are very quick to blame the system and not the operator.

I'm quite certain that if we could duplicate your beautiful system and disperse it to musicians far and wide there would be folks making it sound great and folks making it sound bad.

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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
The Bose L1 contains a digital signal chain. Everything is converted to digital and back again. Indeed, if you use a Tone Engine with the older L1, it happens twice - analog => digital => analog => digital => analog => your ear. It produces artifacts. They're not too bad, and are certainly less noticeable than the plethora of cheap digital boxes out there, but they're more present than when compared to high end digital products. Kinda middle-of-the-road.
This is all new to me. I always learn a lot every time you post. Thank you for that! If I bypass the T1 and run something directly into the Analog Input of my Bose L1 model two, does it still go through one digital conversion or is it labeled "Analog Input" for a reason? I want to see if I can hear the difference. Are there folks who will stick totally to analog and try to avoid any digital conversion? Does something like an acoustic guitar amp (say a Fishman Loudbox) contain a digital signal chain?

Sorry for all the questions. This is quite interesting!

Matt
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  #49  
Old 03-29-2008, 01:59 PM
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I know I'm responding to my own post here but I've been doing some research and experimenting.

The Bose manual describes the Analog Input as "A line-level analog input. Accepts a 1/4" TRS phone cable. Used for an instrument or other audio source."

That's all it says. I messed around with plugging my guitar first into the T1 and then into this analog input leaving all settings on my blender the same. There is a difference that I can't yet describe but I seem to like the guitar better through the analog input.

I tried both vocals and guitar into my Fishman Loudbox and then out to the Analog Input. I like vocals better through the T1 than I did through the Fishman into Analog but I don't know what the Fishman is doing to the signal.

I can't help but to wonder if this digital stuff that sdelsolray described has something to do with me not liking my Aura pedals. Maybe too far off topic for this thread but would that add a third round of digital conversion to send the guitar to the Aura and the Aura to the T1?

Hmmmm

Matt
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  #50  
Old 03-29-2008, 02:07 PM
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One thing to keep in mind is that virtually all the music you listen to on recordings, radio, etc, has endured more of these digital conversions than you can count, unless you still have old original vinyls and an analog playback system to go with them. So you have to ask yourself it it bothers you there.... Some will say yes, of course. I'm a fan of a good analog path myself, but in the end what matters is if it sounds good to you, no matter how you get there. These days if you refuse to use anything that is digital anywhere in the signal path, you're going to have pretty limited options.
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  #51  
Old 03-29-2008, 03:31 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by open-road-matt View Post
But that's you. If we look at your posts and the system you've put together, it's quite clear, at least to me, that you have the ear and the experience to get the L1 or any system, to sound as good as it can for your music.

The folks that are setting these things up in various bars and restaurants, and running everything through a cheap mixer with too much verb night after night have never taken the time to really figure it out. And for some reason, perhaps because the L1 is different or perhaps because of the Bose name, I'm not sure why but people are very quick to blame the system and not the operator.

I'm quite certain that if we could duplicate your beautiful system and disperse it to musicians far and wide there would be folks making it sound great and folks making it sound bad.

Matt
I agree. The main reason I don't care much for the L1 is simply because I have a better rig. I would certainly use a L1 over the many mediocre PAs that are out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by open-road-matt View Post
This is all new to me. I always learn a lot every time you post. Thank you for that! If I bypass the T1 and run something directly into the Analog Input of my Bose L1 model two, does it still go through one digital conversion or is it labeled "Analog Input" for a reason? I want to see if I can hear the difference. Are there folks who will stick totally to analog and try to avoid any digital conversion? Does something like an acoustic guitar amp (say a Fishman Loudbox) contain a digital signal chain?

Sorry for all the questions. This is quite interesting!

Matt
The A/D an d D/A converters are in the floor unit on the original L1. They are in the Tone Match Engine in the newer L1. So, I suspect that line level input you are talking about does not go through digital conversion before hitting the power amp. That's straight analog.
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  #52  
Old 03-29-2008, 03:39 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by open-road-matt View Post
I know I'm responding to my own post here but I've been doing some research and experimenting.

The Bose manual describes the Analog Input as "A line-level analog input. Accepts a 1/4" TRS phone cable. Used for an instrument or other audio source."

That's all it says. I messed around with plugging my guitar first into the T1 and then into this analog input leaving all settings on my blender the same. There is a difference that I can't yet describe but I seem to like the guitar better through the analog input.

I tried both vocals and guitar into my Fishman Loudbox and then out to the Analog Input. I like vocals better through the T1 than I did through the Fishman into Analog but I don't know what the Fishman is doing to the signal.

I can't help but to wonder if this digital stuff that sdelsolray described has something to do with me not liking my Aura pedals. Maybe too far off topic for this thread but would that add a third round of digital conversion to send the guitar to the Aura and the Aura to the T1?

Hmmmm

Matt
By using the analog line in on the Bose you are bypassing the T1 and all of its benefits and/or detriments. It's a good thing to experiment around, as you have quite a bit of different gear. Unfortunately, Bose is intentionally stingy with specifications, so it's hard to analyze how things would work together on paper.
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  #53  
Old 03-29-2008, 04:16 PM
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I may be coming in a bit late on this, but I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway...

Specs are for engineers. Use your ears and your common sense -- They will lead you where you ultimately want to be.

I've been using the Bose L1 with 2 B1 modules since November, 2005. Added the T1 tonematch module last summer. Gig with it a minimum of 2-3 times a month. Everything from coffee shops and Borders Books Stores, to backyard parties and large Farmers Markets in the Summer (Got out of the bar gig circus 25 years ago). If you take the time to:

A) Understand how and why the Bose system is a different beast than the standard PA, and being heard is NOT synonymous with being LOUD;

B) Read and understand the concept of gain staging, and;

C) Adapt to the notion that your monitor is behind you, and you are hearing what the audience is hearing...

...Then you may come to quickly appreciate what the L1 has to offer. Great room coverage -- Plenty loud when it needs to be --, great quality audio, easy setup, compact package...

Re: Digital Artifacts -- Maybe I'm missing something by using the original system as compared to the new Model II, but I've never heard digital artifacts in my audio -- Acoustic guitars, Electric guitars, Vocals, or an iPod -- All trough the T1 module. I do run a balanced TRS cable to input 3 on the power stand. If you're hearing artifacts, I would wonder whether you're using a Line 6 Pod (Those things have terrible artifacts).

Re: Mixers & Efx with the L1 -- The original design of the system was for it to be used by individuals (Original name for it was the Personal Amplification System). I've used it successfully with two and three people playing through it. The key is Minimal Reverb and effects and taking a few minutes to set up accurate EQs if using a mixer. Again, take a few minutes for preparation, and you'll be happy with the results.

I'm certainly not going to knock someone who feels they can hear a major quality difference between the L1 and other high end systems. All I can say is that since I've been using the Bose product, I'm getting more compliments, the audience sticks around longer and seems to be enjoying themselves, I'm getting invited back everywhere I play, and -- Most imprtantly -- I'm enjoying myself more onstage because I'm not fighting the sound system anymore...

YMMV...
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  #54  
Old 03-29-2008, 04:51 PM
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What did you use before the L1, Gutch?
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  #55  
Old 03-29-2008, 06:46 PM
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I played last night through my L1 model II and T1 tonematch. The audience was a little thin and the room was really nice. The sound was fantastic, IMO. There was a guy in the audience who plays in the same place twice a month and he was commenting on how good it sounded.

I could hear myself so effortlessly and clearly that my singing and playing was much more nuanced. I will never go back.
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  #56  
Old 03-29-2008, 08:48 PM
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A question the the Bose fans.

What is you benchmark against if you think Bose is "high end", be it home theater or live sound reinforcement? I am truly interested........thx.
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:45 PM
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What did you use before the L1, Gutch?
Whatever was available. Primarily powered mixers with pair of small cabs. Primarily Yamaha, Peavey, Carver, Mackie. Had just gotten back into playing, so used house systems for a year or so before making the investment in my own system.
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  #58  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:51 PM
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Whatever was available. Primarily powered mixers with pair of small cabs. Primarily Yamaha, Peavey, Carver, Mackie. Had just gotten back into playing, so used house systems for a year or so before making the investment in my own system.
Yuch. I bet some of them date back to the '80s. I'd take an L1 over that state of affairs any day of the week. Good move.
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  #59  
Old 03-30-2008, 12:02 AM
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A question the the Bose fans.

What is you benchmark against if you think Bose is "high end", be it home theater or live sound reinforcement? I am truly interested........thx.
I consider Bose to be midrange in the home audio arena. There are a lot better speakers out there if you're willing to spend the money.

Same thing in performance audio. If you want to spend the money, there are better systems. My point is only that, for the money I wanted to spend, the Bose system provided the best sound in an innovative design that I happened to like.

There are people who don't like Bose, just as there are people who don't particular brands of guitars. I could care less what other people are using -- The gear I'm using works for me and my audiences...
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  #60  
Old 03-30-2008, 01:01 AM
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1Just my opinion (shared by thousands of others) including Steve Miller.

John
What did you use, Cakes, before you got an L1?
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