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  #16  
Old 03-24-2008, 04:07 PM
Earthworm Earthworm is offline
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I have the T1 and really enjoy the ability to pull up different scenes. For example, a Crowdster scene or my Martin OMC Aura scene, etc. That is a handy-dandy lil' feature, to be sure.

I also love having the T1 mounted at my fingertips on the mic stand. Very handy.
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  #17  
Old 03-25-2008, 06:16 PM
Wandering Man Wandering Man is offline
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I have to admit...on the whole, I think all the talk about Bose is a lot of shallow hype. I've NEVER liked their consumer audio stuff and hate how they think you don't need tone controls on their little 'wave radios'...assuming that every CD you put in there is 'created equal' is both arrogant and naive. Just don't get me started on their consumer crap.

HOWEVER...

With that in mind, I played through my friends PAS one night, and the rest is now history. I used to own what many consider to be THE cadillac of all acoustic systems (2 Daedalus S2 cabinets powered by a Hafler P3000 with a Pendulum preamp and Lexicon reverb). I sold the Daedalus cabs immediately (and those cabs are FANTASTIC!!!). I've now been playing out with my Model I for about 3 years now and love it...granted I still use my Pendulum and Lexicon through my Bose...nothing quite like those two units. Then when I need more ins, I bring my little Mackie and run everything through it and then into the Bose with a single line.

FYI...one of my favorite series I've played is run by the Tidewater Friends of Folk Music (TFFM.org) and they use 2 Bose Model I towers for their 'house' system. The performances are held in a 200 capacity amphitheater and they run the house board outs (right and left) into the 2 towers for stereo sound. No monitors...just the two towers. I played the Birchmere the night before with their huge sound system (which was very good), but I absolutely LOVED the sound I got from the stereo towers. Amazing stuff!

Bose has made a believer out of me...at least for this product. I still think the bulk of their other stuff is crap...Sshhhh :-)
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  #18  
Old 03-25-2008, 06:35 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Wandering Man View Post
With that in mind, I played through my friends PAS one night, and the rest is now history. I used to own what many consider to be THE cadillac of all acoustic systems (2 Daedalus S2 cabinets powered by a Hafler P3000 with a Pendulum preamp and Lexicon reverb). I sold the Daedalus cabs immediately (and those cabs are FANTASTIC!!!). I've now been playing out with my Model I for about 3 years now and love it...granted I still use my Pendulum and Lexicon through my Bose...nothing quite like those two units. Then when I need more ins, I bring my little Mackie and run everything through it and then into the Bose with a single line.
I put my Pendulum/TC Electronic/Hafler/Daedalus rig up against a Bose PAS, three different times actually. The Bose sounds like a toy in comparison. Different strokes.
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  #19  
Old 03-25-2008, 07:38 PM
srmbr srmbr is offline
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I use a Classic L1 for solo / duet / and band.

We are still working thru the band thing. We have a Classic L1, the drummer and bass player have 4 B1's with Packlite amps..my drummer also hooks up a pair of EAW 18's and QSC EX4000. Low end is no longer a issue.

For the solo / duet, can't beat it.

Steve
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  #20  
Old 03-25-2008, 08:05 PM
Wandering Man Wandering Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
I put my Pendulum/TC Electronic/Hafler/Daedalus rig up against a Bose PAS, three different times actually. The Bose sounds like a toy in comparison. Different strokes.
Actually, you raise a very good point. My issue with the Daedalus cabs wasn't the quality of sound so much as the directionality. I agree with you that the Daedalus did sound better than the Bose...they were smoother and easier to listen to for certain and maybe even a bit more natural. But my big issue was their directionality. Unless you are in the sweet spot of the Daedalus - which is actually fairly narrow...maybe 20 degrees at best - you're not only missing the best sound, but the sound is actually muddy. For my purposes of gigging to different rooms, the Bose were a no-brainer. If I wanted a studio setup or if I knew that my room was narrow, then I'd stick with the high class Daedalus.

Mark
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  #21  
Old 03-26-2008, 02:45 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Cakes View Post
(My emphasis) Exactly. As for whether the Bose sounds like a toy next to the daedalus, (as someone else said), sound is a subjective thing and I don't doubt the opinion is sincere. I would be curious to know what sound sources were tested and whether other considerations were factored.

(portability, ability to hear one's self, ability of entire room to hear clear, consistent sound, ability to hear other band members, ability to hear what audience hears, high gain before feedback, and what eq settings were tried in these three comparison tests)

What good is pristine sound if the entire audience can't hear it?

John
My opinion is certainly subjective, and it is sincere. Now, I haven't tried a Pendulum SPS-1 and Lexicon verb through a Bose L-1, as Wandering Man has. But a standard L-1 does indeed sound like a toy compared to a Pendulum SPS-1/TC Electronic M2000/Hafler P3000/Daedalus W803 pair. The stereo dispersion from the Daedalus W-803 pair on sticks is quite nice indeed. Of course, that's for my uses as a solo fingerstyle player. Your mileage is different.

As to Daedalus speakers having a 20% sweet spot, that is objectively and factually untrue. Daedalus has done comprehensive tests of all of its speakers regarding dispersion at over 100 different frequency points. The all have excellent to superior dispersion specs, at least according to scientific evidence, with the SC1203 having the best specs (due in part to offset tweeters).

Not everyone is enamored with the Bose L1 sound. The digital artifacts, harsh high frequencies, artificial, strained and anemic mids and dijointed bass, all add up to a strained listening experience.

Last edited by sdelsolray; 03-26-2008 at 03:01 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-26-2008, 03:11 PM
Wandering Man Wandering Man is offline
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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
My opinion is certainly subjective, and it is sincere. Now, I haven't tried a Pendulum SPS-1 and Lexicon verb through a Bose L-1, as Wandering Man has. But a standard L-1 does indeed sound like a toy compared to a Pendulum SPS-1/TC Electronic M2000/Hafler P3000/Daedalus W803 pair. The stereo dispersion from the Daedalus W-803 pair on sticks is quite nice indeed. Of course, that's for my uses as a solo fingerstyle player. Your mileage is different.

As to Daedalus speakers having a 20% sweet spot, that is objectively and factually untrue. Daedalus has done comprehensive tests of all of its speakers regarding dispersion at over 100 different frequency points. The atll have excellent to superior dispersion specs, at least according to scientific evidence.

Not everyone is enamored with the Bose L1 sound. The digital artifacts, harsh high frequencies, artificial, strained and anemic mids and dijointed bass, all add up to a strained listening experience.
803s...now that's a nice speaker!! Maybe I'll have to try some of the newer models and hear the improvements myself. I was certainly exaggerating when I said 20 degrees...but not much more than 50 degrees (at least for the S-82s) for sure...and I had 2 of these mounted on stands. But I would get so many comments from people in the audience about the different quality of sound in the room (and I would try multiple directional configurations to get the optimal sound) that I had to find a better option. So regardless of what the tests say for dispersion, mine were muddy outside of what I would otherwise that. Now I had the S-82s in cherrywood...not the 803s. Mine had no real "tweeter" or horn...just 2 10" and two 4" cones (or something like that). So the trebles got lost outside of the 'range.' Beautiful, smooth sound and beautiful to look at though.

Again, comparing the Daedalus to Bose is not fair. They're apples and oranges. One is true audiophile and one is pseudo audiophile. But I made the choice for great sound for everyone...not the best sound for a few (in my case :-)

It's sort of like when people chide me for playing with Elixirs on my guitars. I know that un-coated strings sound better than coated...that's a no-brainer. But when you have my hands and play your guitar for less than 1 hour and the sound of un-coated strings lose their tone so badly that they're now 10 times more dull than a 1 week old set of Elixirs...you make a choice. I choose Elixirs because I get great tone (not the 'best' tone) for weeks of play...rather than 30 minutes of gorgeous and then have to suffer through muddy crap or change strings every other hour. Such is my fate. :-)
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2008, 04:05 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Wandering Man View Post
803s...now that's a nice speaker!! Maybe I'll have to try some of the newer models and hear the improvements myself. I was certainly exaggerating when I said 20 degrees...but not much more than 50 degrees (at least for the S-82s) for sure...and I had 2 of these mounted on stands. But I would get so many comments from people in the audience about the different quality of sound in the room (and I would try multiple directional configurations to get the optimal sound) that I had to find a better option. So regardless of what the tests say for dispersion, mine were muddy outside of what I would otherwise that. Now I had the S-82s in cherrywood...not the 803s. Mine had no real "tweeter" or horn...just 2 10" and two 4" cones (or something like that). So the trebles got lost outside of the 'range.' Beautiful, smooth sound and beautiful to look at though.

Again, comparing the Daedalus to Bose is not fair. They're apples and oranges. One is true audiophile and one is pseudo audiophile. But I made the choice for great sound for everyone...not the best sound for a few (in my case :-)

It's sort of like when people chide me for playing with Elixirs on my guitars. I know that un-coated strings sound better than coated...that's a no-brainer. But when you have my hands and play your guitar for less than 1 hour and the sound of un-coated strings lose their tone so badly that they're now 10 times more dull than a 1 week old set of Elixirs...you make a choice. I choose Elixirs because I get great tone (not the 'best' tone) for weeks of play...rather than 30 minutes of gorgeous and then have to suffer through muddy crap or change strings every other hour. Such is my fate. :-)
Lou Hinkley, of Daedalus, would be the first to tell you that the S82 (square cabinet with 2 8" and 2 5" speakers) is the least impressive of the Daedalus line, and is not designed to be a PA speaker. The S81 is actually more accurate and has overall better behavior. But even the S81 is not designed as a PA speaker. I used a pair for a couple of years on sticks. Nice sound indeed, but not up to the level of the three Daedalus PA models - W803, SR823 and SC1203. These are all three way passive designs. I've owned and used pairs of all three. For solo fingerstyle, the W803 pair is perfect. The SR823 and SC1203 are somewhat more impressive, but at 60 and 80 lbs each, respectively, the 40 lb weight of the W803 is right for me. These PA models have better dispersion than nearly anything else. The sweet spot is wide and deep. But the quality of the sound should not be underplayed. Good coverage is important but if its at the expense of sound quality that's where I get off the bus. Now there are line array systems from EAR and SLS and others that are simply incredible, and at $20k, $40k or more, they certainly should be.

I haven't tried my SPS-1 and TC Elctroncis M2000 (effects unit) through a Bose L1. I would certainly suspect that the resulting sound and behavior would improve, perhaps significantly. If you have found a great sound using your SPS-1 and Lexicon with the L1 then it's often best to leave well enough alone. But I can say that the Daedalus PA models are quite different from a pair of Daedalus S82. BTW, Daedalus upgraded both the 2-way and 3-way inductive crossovers in their speakers a few years ago, and upgraded the 5" mid speaker. I had my S81's upgraded and the difference was pleasing, although a bit subtle. The difference between the older PA models and the newer ones is a bit more present and noticable, although I've only compared W803's in this regard.
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  #24  
Old 03-26-2008, 04:21 PM
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I also agree that the Model 1 is just as good as the model II. I liked the portability of the base in the M2 and the T1.
You just need to spring for the deluxe bags for the M1. They have wheels and straps so that the tower cases will strap to the base case and you can roll everything into the club in one trip.
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  #25  
Old 03-26-2008, 04:31 PM
Earthworm Earthworm is offline
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I had the deluxe bag. The model II base is much easier to transport and fit in a trunk. Certainly not worth the upgrade for that alone, however. It is a nice compact system.
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  #26  
Old 03-26-2008, 05:16 PM
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"Not everyone is enamored with the Bose L1 sound. The digital artifacts, harsh high frequencies, artificial, strained and anemic mids and dijointed bass, all add up to a strained listening experience."

+1
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  #27  
Old 03-26-2008, 05:55 PM
Wandering Man Wandering Man is offline
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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Lou Hinkley, of Daedalus, would be the first to tell you that the S82 (square cabinet with 2 8" and 2 5" speakers) is the least impressive of the Daedalus line, and is not designed to be a PA speaker. The S81 is actually more accurate and has overall better behavior. But even the S81 is not designed as a PA speaker. I used a pair for a couple of years on sticks. Nice sound indeed, but not up to the level of the three Daedalus PA models - W803, SR823 and SC1203. These are all three way passive designs. I've owned and used pairs of all three. For solo fingerstyle, the W803 pair is perfect. The SR823 and SC1203 are somewhat more impressive, but at 60 and 80 lbs each, respectively, the 40 lb weight of the W803 is right for me. These PA models have better dispersion than nearly anything else. The sweet spot is wide and deep. But the quality of the sound should not be underplayed. Good coverage is important but if its at the expense of sound quality that's where I get off the bus. Now there are line array systems from EAR and SLS and others that are simply incredible, and at $20k, $40k or more, they certainly should be.

I haven't tried my SPS-1 and TC Elctroncis M2000 (effects unit) through a Bose L1. I would certainly suspect that the resulting sound and behavior would improve, perhaps significantly. If you have found a great sound using your SPS-1 and Lexicon with the L1 then it's often best to leave well enough alone. But I can say that the Daedalus PA models are quite different from a pair of Daedalus S82. BTW, Daedalus upgraded both the 2-way and 3-way inductive crossovers in their speakers a few years ago, and upgraded the 5" mid speaker. I had my S81's upgraded and the difference was pleasing, although a bit subtle. The difference between the older PA models and the newer ones is a bit more present and noticable, although I've only compared W803's in this regard.
Yeah...I've heard about the upgrades. I got my pair back in '99...before the 803s were out. I'm sure things have improved significantly since then. I guess once my kids finish up with school, maybe then I can reinvest in some Daedalus. Lou is great and his work is top notch.

best!

Mark
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  #28  
Old 03-26-2008, 07:02 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Wandering Man View Post
Yeah...I've heard about the upgrades. I got my pair back in '99...before the 803s were out. I'm sure things have improved significantly since then. I guess once my kids finish up with school, maybe then I can reinvest in some Daedalus. Lou is great and his work is top notch.

best!

Mark
I started with the 823 pair in 98 or 99. Sold them (dunno why) and got a used pair of S81s in '03 or so, virtually unused, and had Lou upgrade the crossovers and 5" speakers. In '06, I got a used pair of 1203 (an early version with just one tweeter in each cab) and a used pair of newer 803, from a dealer who cancelled (or was dropped from) the line. For a time, I had three pairs. I played a few gigs with the 1203 pair on sticks as mains and the 803 pair as monitors. The SPS-1 fed both through a pair of Halfer P3000 stereo power amps. I have since sold the pairs of S81s and the 1203s, each for slightly more than I paid for them (that's always good), and have (I think) finally settled on the 803 pair as the perfect speakers for my uses and my signal chain.

I don't know where you live. Lou moved to the Seattle area several years ago and he is currently moving Daedalus here to Portland, OR. If you're in the neighborhood, give a shout.

Back to the L1 topic, I am curious. How would you compare a straight L1 with the L1 with the SPS-1 and Lexicon on the front end? What would you describe as the difference in sound, behavior and performance?
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  #29  
Old 03-26-2008, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
my Pendulum/TC Electronic/Hafler/Daedalus rig
I don't mean to hijack the thread and I'm not going to give up my L1 but is the above a popular combination of components?

I'm always curious about unfamiliar gear and it's interesting that you and Wandering Man had almost the same set up and I think he referred to it as the "Cadillac of Sound Systems."

Just curious. The Daedalus speakers are beautiful. I'd be afraid to take them out of the house! :-)

Matt
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:31 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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I don't mean to hijack the thread and I'm not going to give up my L1 but is the above a popular combination of components?

I'm always curious about unfamiliar gear and it's interesting that you and Wandering Man had almost the same set up and I think he referred to it as the "Cadillac of Sound Systems."

Just curious. The Daedalus speakers are beautiful. I'd be afraid to take them out of the house! :-)

Matt
It's a component system, comprised of a pre, eq, mix bus, effects, power amp and speakers, along with associated features. The actual components used will often and easily vary from person to person, situation to situation, in the signal chain - that's the nature of a component system. For quite some time, this has been done in recording studios, as you might see in a rack of outboard gear at any major recording studio.

The particular components in my signal chain are all fairly well known in the acoustic guitar world and have been around for quite some time. For example, the Pendulum SPS-1 was introduced as a two channel successor to an earlier Pendulum model in 1993 and is simply the finest acoustic guitar preamp/eq/mix bus/chief bottle washer there is, bar none. TC Electronics is a large European company well known for high quality gear, both for gigging and the studio, and has in more recent years released budget and prosumer products that are quite nice for the price. Hafler goes back decades, mostly known for high quality to audiophile level power amps for home, studio or live use. Unfortuantely, they closed their doors a year or two ago. Daedalus is perhaps the least known, as it started in the early '90's making only speakers for acoustic music. Daedalus has since branched into audiophile markets, for home, live and studio.

As to popularity, I don't know how many folks that have a "Pendulum/Daedalus" rig (a shorthand term used to describe a signal chain that has at least those two components). A few thousand SPS-1's are out there. Same for Daedalus. TC Electronics and Hafler products are no doubt in the tens to hundreds of thousands. I can tell you that such a rig is expensive, with street prices (new) running from approximately $4k to $12k. It's certainly a situation where you get what you pay for - total uncompromised audiophile sound and complete user controlled functionality.

And I would agree with an earlier poster that it's really not appropriate or fair to compare such a rig to a Bose L1, which costs much less (with associated compromises), has a very different design philosophy (Bose knows what's best) and whose functions are implemented in a very different way (less user control).

Basically, my rig is just another mini-PA, taking about 15 minutes to set up:





Last edited by sdelsolray; 03-26-2008 at 08:51 PM.
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