Question about Luthier Wait Lists & Pricing

[tadol]

Its hard to say they’re screwing you over - they are benefitting from an arrangement they’ve made with the luthier, and it might be argued that they are benefitting excessively, but its a very basic supply/demand scenario. If there is a published price list, then the prices on that list should reflect accurately the price for getting the product. The delivery date is a completely separate thing -

Dealers may hold build spots with luthiers, and the value of that spot would be how quickly you could get the guitar. If the builder is only taking orders to start a build in 2022, then a build spot that would get your guitar started in 2019 might be worth a bit more, especially if you can’t wait.

I guess I don’t understand why you would pay more to get on the end of the list - especially with so many outstanding luthiers who could get you a guitar far sooner -

[EverettWilliams]

I’ve commissioned ten or so instruments and, in each case, prices have locked with the deposit. Some have been a relatively quick turn, but some have been three or four years out. In one case, I paid about half of what the guitar was going for when it rolled off the line. This is why some reputable builders with excessive demand close their lists.

I’ve never heard of this before and I’d be quite leery. Note too that there’s a lot of faddishness to “hot builders” - so there is no guarantee that the prices will increase to this extent with market forces. A number of builders have ridden the bubble only to increase their prices considerably and see demand dry up at the top. Nobody wants to admit defeat, so you see a lot of recent “used” instruments coming to dealers without a scratch - perhaps people are buying new, not playing, and taking a hit, but there’s pretty compelling evidence that some of these instruments are coming from the builders as the demand at bubble prices has dried up. It’s a tough business being a luthier, so I don’t begrudge someone for trying to ensure future stability. But the idea of paying inflated prices for a future build flies in the face of the market practices.

And I’d strongly suggest just working with the builder if it’s an option. Commissions are really fun and I count some of my builders as good friends. The smart money in handbuilts is never buying new. But when you look at the premium as the price of admission to the experience, it makes more sense.

Good luck and have fun!

[nacluth]

It would make sense if a builder has a three year waitlist and they didn’t particularly want to stop taking orders to raise their base price. Typically one would say, “from now on base price is $X.” It would be odd to say, “my next build slot is in 2022, so my base price will be $X.” Effectively, they accomplish the same, but one has less ambiguity.

It would be an awkward arrangement if you have to order through a dealer because of geography (some dealers in parts of the world ask for exclusive coverage of a region). Then, it might stick you with having to deal with the dealer direct. An email to the builder can probably clear up most misunderstandings. While it’s not the most couth to ask about dealer arrangements of builders, to clear up pricing points, it would be understandable.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

So from what I am understanding, this luthier has a contract with a dealer to sell build slots over a period of time that includes increased prices for each successive year and the price to the customer is the price assigned to the year the guitar is delivered as opposed to the cost of the guitar in the year that it is ordered. I have not come across that arrangement before. In every guitar that I have custom ordered (1 through a dealer), the price was related to the time it was ordered, not delivered. The longest that I have waited for a custom build was 20 months.

It would seem that any price adjustment would be based on projected inflation rates. 25% over 3.5 years seems high to me. Even with it being at 3% a year (current US rate is at about 2%), we are talking 9 - 11% total increase. And if you are paying for that increased amount for both the luthier and the dealer, then that seems excessive to me. On the other hand, if this is the guitar that you want from a builder that you feel will give you the guitar that fits your needs best, then you may just want to go for it if you have the means to do it. But in all the years that I have been a part of the guitar building community, I have not come across this arrangement. Good luck with the build no matter what you decide.

Best,
Jayne

Jayne nails it.

For both the current Kostal I have on order for a 2020 build (that is almost paid for) and other times I have inquired and researched with others, the pricing and the down payment has always been based on the current price on the website when you place the order. I think most luthiers are gracious enough to understand that if you commit to a down payment and a build slot, they owe you as best they can to lock in the price. To me, it is like a contract.

I would go elsewhere, there are a lot of fine luthiers out there who would not do what you have described.

Good luck.

[Tony Burns]

Maybe you should stop this baloney by buying a
existing instrument used - the market is flooded with used guitars
that go for less than 1/2 of new -from top builders
Id spend some time looking, maybe even jump on a plane to try one.
Id be concerned with buying a guitar at full list , waiting three years
and then someday selling it for 1/2 or less - and having a hard time with doing that.
We also tend to buy fancy guitars with alot of bling that really dont make a guitar better -just look better.
Honestly Ive done this but back in the late seventies where a new custom build was like a grand -

This is not an economy to pay full retail for anything -
if you have money to burn put it a money market or CD -
and buy something decent a pro would be happy with.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Personally, when someone places an order with me they get locked into a delivery window and a price structure, but not a specific guitar or design. We then have the ensuing time to develop a plan which will end up being as close as possible to the ideal guitar for that buyer.

It is easy for me to understand why a buyer would go to a dealer for existing guitars as they will have many choices and be able to try before they buy. But it is much harder to understand why anyone would go to a dealer for a new construction when they could deal directly with builder. Many builders are able to develop a direct relationship with the customer will be pure magic and produce a guitar that actually represents the truth and beauty of the process. This guitar can be loved as a family member.

I cannot be the only luthier who has put as much energy into relationship development skill as I have into lutherie skill development. I like to imagine that I can reach into my customer and pull out the guitar that is in their heart.

While it is possible for dealer to facilitate such an experience, it seems at least as likely that a third wheel experience is developed where the dealer actually inhibits the communication and potentially raises the price of admission, as the dealer too must eat.

[EverettWilliams]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Personally, when someone places an order with me they get locked into a delivery window and a price structure, but not a specific guitar or design. We then have the ensuing time to develop a plan which will end up being as close as possible to the ideal guitar for that buyer.

It is easy for me to understand why a buyer would go to a dealer for existing guitars as they will have many choices and be able to try before they buy. But it is much harder to understand why anyone would go to a dealer for a new construction when they could deal directly with builder. Many builders are able to develop a direct relationship with the customer will be pure magic and produce a guitar that actually represents the truth and beauty of the process. This guitar can be loved as a family member.

I cannot be the only luthier who has put as much energy into relationship development skill as I have into lutherie skill development. I like to imagine that I can reach into my customer and pull out the guitar that is in their heart.

While it is possible for dealer to facilitate such an experience, it seems at least as likely that a third wheel experience is developed where the dealer actually inhibits the communication and potentially raises the price of admission, as the dealer too must eat.

I basically agree with everything Bruce said. But can see a few scenarios where a dealer may be value added. First, on the builder side, these client relationships (which for many builders seem to be enjoyable) can be time consuming and it’s probable that the comparative ease of communication between a savvy dealer and a builder who speak the same language could bring efficiency. Second, some clients may not be very fluent in the language of guitars and a good dealer could put a bunch of instruments in their hands, diagnose their needs, and communicate those to a builder. A good dealer combined with the right client or builder may earn its keep in this deal. But for me, it would be a third wheel. I love talking guitars and I love the process. Still, in some cases, it could make sense.

[John K]

I have two luthier built guitars. Both with about a year waiting time. Both built for the advertised price at the point of ordering. Any other way would be unacceptable to me.

[Larry Pattis]

Two ways to buy a guitar from a private builder who may have a small retail-representative presence...directly from the builder, and via one of his/her retailers.

For many years, many (if not most) builders would offer a locked-in price...such as what the OP is describing.

Then, perhaps a decade ago (or longer), some builders began taking orders for their wait-lists, but with no fixed price for the year of that particular build.

There is some serious logic behind a popular builder *not* offering a fixed price years into the future.

Some of this logic revolves around the builder him or herself being financially-cautious when looking out 2-5 years or longer. It's not easy to predict all the variables, and so prudence would find that builder possibly charging *more* than they think will be necessary, to fully cover all contingencies. If this happens, the customer actually will pay more, for the locked-in price.

So if the builder takes the commission with *no* fixed price, there is some good chance that the price for that year will then simply reflect the costs that go into that build. This, IMO, is *most* fair to the builder, because we *all* want to see them earn a sustainable living...right?

This can then also work in favor of the customer...as the builder won't be asking for that extra "cushion" to protect against variables/unknowns, by locking in an advance-price.

Regardless, if you're dealing with a builder who is popular enough to currently have a 3 year (or more) wait-list, then getting into the game on their terms is the only way to proceed!

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by lfarhadi

Hi all, Would appreciate any insights on this:

I'm considering putting down a deposit with a well-known and respected dealer, who officially represents one of the "hot" young builders. The build would be delivered in 2022, and dealer is asking for a base price that is 25% higher than the builder's 2019 prices. They explain that the builder has set this price increase for their 2022 builds. From my perspective, if I'm paying for a guitar 36-40 months away, I should probably be locking in today's price.

Anyone been through this and can opine on my reasonable expectations should be?

Thanks in advance!

What is this "2019 price" that's being talked about? If somebody is buying a custom guitar in 2019, the price the dealer quoted IS the 2019 price. When the build is completed is irrelevant.

[robj144]

Seems stupid. Most luthiers will charge you their current base price no matter how long it takes.

I wouldn't pay for a projected base price personally. I'd look for someone else.

[roylor4]

I have no experience with this, but the logic doesn't cut it IMO.

He gets to factor in increased demand (which may or may not exist later) increased price on materials (that they may already have and could possibly diminish) and have the money to invest while the op has no guitar and loss of the use of the money (or at least a portion of it).

As already mentioned, there's no guarantee the builder will still be in operation in 3+ years.

I have a hard time seeing the upside here. Ymmv

[Ukulele_Eddie]

I've commissioned quite a few custom luthier ukes (several also make guitars) and one custom guitar (Wilborn). In every case, the price was locked when I placed my deposit. But in all cases I commissioned directly with the luthier. Most of them barely make money anyway, so the last thing I would want to see is have them give up $ to a shop on a custom commission.

Now, to be clear, I do appreciate shops who spec instruments for luthiers to build and then carry them and they deserve to make a fair profit on those. But in your case you are commissioning it.

If I were you, I'd likely look around. There are lots of great builders who can build whatever you want, including your preferred neck width and string spacing. That what I had Ben do for me. And he can typically deliver in about 6-7 months right now, I believe.

In any case, good luck with your build!

[mercy]

so you have to pay extra because he cant build a guitar today? Nope, its just not fair. A builder taking advantage of you that way is not an ethical person. Go elsewhere, there are so many great builders now days that you arent stuck.

[Teleplucker]

Find another builder. There are plenty of folks doing top notch work. I’ve commissioned many guitars and never heard of this arrangement.