reverb and compression

[bbrown]

Can folks recommend Compressor and Reverb settings for the DAW "Audacity"?

Specifically, I'm looking for a warm and subtle acoustic effect for solo acoustic guitar - fingerstyle and classical.

I looked into this before, and just thought I'd ask once again, as I think I understand a little more of the jargon than I did months ago.

Thanks,

--Bill

[moon]

To "warm" up an acoustic guitar, the first thing I'd work on would be picking hand position. Also, moving the mic in close enough to get a little proximity effect might help, depending on the mic.

There's no fixed formula to apply with compression or other types of effect. You just have to listen, tweak, and figure out what's best for the sound you want, the source you're working with, and the specific plug-in/hardware you're using (they all sound different). If I'm looking for a natural sound, I'd try not to use any FX at all.

To warm the sound try copying the guitar to a new track. Stick a low pass and high pass on the new track and mix that in with the original. Mids will be boosted relative to highs and transient content. Adjust the high pass to prevent too much muddy low-end build up. This has a similar kind of effect to compression but doesn't introduce any issues with pumping etc.

Digital reverbs often seem to benefit from some careful EQ to cut out an excessive top end. I usually add a low pass and a high pass on the way in. Again, this boosts mids. Reverbs often have some kind of "bandwidth" option but I feel like I've got more control with dedicated EQ plugins.

However, you'll need a proper DAW with more options for audio routing. The EQ plug-ins before the reverb knock the top and bottom off so this has to be a wet-only, parallel audio path ie a separate bus fed by a send from the dry track.

Also, if you've got other parts in the music, such as vocals, you'll want to adjust the guitar volume without messing up the careful balance between dry, mids-only and reverb. The two guitar tracks would be passed through a common bus and you'd set up the reverb send post-fader on the same. Now they'll all keep in step when you adjust the guitar bus fader.

It's a lot simpler than it might sound - honest.. Plus you get lots of other great features in a proper DAW such as fader automation.

[Fran Guidry]

First, make sure you're using the 1.3.x beta of Audacity.

I recommend against using compression. It's both very subtle and potentially quite damaging, a bad combination.

For reverb I recommend these free plugins:

Variety of Sound epicVerb: http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/downloads/
Sweetboy Reverb: http://rekkerd.org/sweetboy-vst/

To open the .rar archive from Variety of Sounds you'll need 7zip: http://www.7-zip.org/

Install these in the Audacity plugin directory by copying the .dll files from the download. In my Win 7 64 installation Audacity plugins go in:

C:\Program Files (x86)\Audacity 1.3 Beta (Unicode)\Plug-Ins

Warm is currently the single most over- and ill-used word in audio according to a number of authorities <grin>. So my recommendations are simple ones. With epicVerb use the default preset and set the wet-dry mix to about 8% wet then adjust to taste. This is quite an elaborate reverb so you can tailor the filtering, predelay, room size, etc etc endlessly.

Sweetboy is a simpler tool but still fine sounding. For this one I'd choose the Studio preset and pull down the wet side of the mixer a touch.

Audacity makes plugins a chore, since it renders the effect instead of delivering its results in real-time. So make a small selection of your clip in a place where you can here the reverb easily, and do your adjustments there. Then select the whole file and render the effect.

Fran

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by moon

...
To warm the sound try copying the guitar to a new track. Stick a low pass and high pass on the new track and mix that in with the original. Mids will be boosted relative to highs and transient content. Adjust the high pass to prevent too much muddy low-end build up. This has a similar kind of effect to compression but doesn't introduce any issues with pumping etc...

This is exactly equivalent to applying the high and low pass to the original and then turning up the volume and is in no way similar to compression.

Fran

[bobby b]

Would this not also introduce +/- phase issues esp high freq if any latency exists between the two tracks, if so this may act/sound like soft compression to an extent but it isnt.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by bobby b

Would this not also introduce +/- phase issues esp high freq if any latency exists between the two tracks, if so this may act/sound like soft compression to an extent but it isnt.

I'm sorry, I don't want to sound like a know-it-all because I'm not, but in the procedure described above there is no latency, there's no movement in time. Copy, EQ, sum was the procedure, which is the same as EQ and add gain.

And phase errors are not equivalent to compression either. Compression is a modification of dynamic range by use of a sensing circuit modulating a gain circuit.

The reason I recommended against the use of compression in my earlier post is that it's rarely needed in the kind of recording we do because a solo acoustic fingerstyle guitar just doesn't have that much dynamic range.

Fran

[bbrown]

I thought there was a 'warm button' I could push, after recording, to make me sound like Tommy Emmanuel. I was hoping someone could tell me where to find that

Thanks very much guys for the info and discussion. I always learn a lot here and appreciate the thoughtful replies. Fran, I 'll check out those reverbs. Lots of new experiments ahead for me.

[bbrown]

BTW, here's the 'default' compression settings on Audacity's Dynamic Range Compressor, for what it's worth..........

Threshold: -10dB
Noise Floor: -40 dB
Ratio: 3:1
Attack Time: 0.6 sec
Decay Time: 4.0 sec

I used this compression for my last few YouTube recordings, done with a Zoom H4N, Wav 44.1 Hz/ 16 bit recording.............http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-envId978v8, for example.

I place the Zoom recorder just out of video range, so it's about 3 feet away (might be an issue re. that "warm" sound).

So, maybe best not to even use Compression?
Perhaps just a subtle reverb and then Normalize to get reasonable volume?

I suspect that a decent mic or two and a better preamp would help some. However, I'd like to see how much I can maximize what the Zoom H4N can do first.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

This is exactly equivalent to applying the high and low pass to the original and then turning up the volume and is in no way similar to compression.

I'm assuming peaks are largely high-frequency transients. If that's correct, this should even out the signal a bit by raising the main, mid-range body of the the sound up towards the peaks. At least that was the idea. The aim was to mix in some mid/low-mid warmth to the timbre while keeping the pristine, original signal, which never goes near any plug-ins. It wouldn't help to tone down some loud power chords which leap out of an otherwise quieter track.

A multi-band EQ would do the same thing but I like to listen to the topped-and-tailed signal and fine tune that on its own before mixing it in. You could add compression here as well if it still needs some leveling.

Don't worry about being critical though. Always good to run through a sanity check

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by moon

I'm assuming peaks are largely high-frequency transients. ..............

Your assumption is incorrect.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bbrown

I used this compression for my last few YouTube recordings, done with a Zoom H4N, Wav 44.1 Hz/ 16 bit recording.............http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-envId978v8, for example.

I think there's a good sound in there but there's also a bit of noise - a kind of hissy rattle. Can you hear that in the original? Might just be youtube which has messed it up.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by bbrown

BTW, here's the 'default' compression settings on Audacity's Dynamic Range Compressor, for what it's worth..........

Threshold: -10dB
Noise Floor: -40 dB
Ratio: 3:1
Attack Time: 0.6 sec
Decay Time: 4.0 sec

I used this compression for my last few YouTube recordings, done with a Zoom H4N, Wav 44.1 Hz/ 16 bit recording.............http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-envId978v8, for example.

I place the Zoom recorder just out of video range, so it's about 3 feet away (might be an issue re. that "warm" sound).

So, maybe best not to even use Compression?
Perhaps just a subtle reverb and then Normalize to get reasonable volume?

I suspect that a decent mic or two and a better preamp would help some. However, I'd like to see how much I can maximize what the Zoom H4N can do first.

I just listened to the clip, bb, your playing continues to grow, it's lovely to hear.

But it sounded totally "warm" to me. The bass was big and full, on my monitors the overall balance might even have been a bit dark. Might be interesting to hear the "before compression" version. The compression you used is configured for voiceover and podcast use if anything. The time constants - .6 sec attack and 4 sec release are completely out of the range for acoustic music, or any kind of music really. The Audacity docs http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Compressor have a discussion of how the parameters work and demonstrates their effect graphically.

Moving the H4n closer will bring up the bass due to proximity. It will also improve the ratio of direct to reflected sound, which is often an improvement. The 3 foot distance is probably ideal for a fine sounding studio or theater. I would recommend that you accept having the recorder in the shot as part of the cinema verite vibe. When you do, spend some time with headphones getting the left right balance tweaked.

In my experience the only noticeable difference between the H4n and an excellent mic/preamp/interface was a slight bit of extra noise that could only be heard in the quietest parts of the recording with the volume unrealistically high. In other words, no difference in terms of delivering the emotional content of the music.

Oh, and one more thing on the subject of "warm." Jeroen Breebaart has created a new free plugin as part of his Tonebooster line: http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ezq/ It's an EQ that maps to colors and verbal descriptions, like "warm" and "bright."

Fran

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by bbrown

BTW, here's the 'default' compression settings on Audacity's Dynamic Range Compressor, for what it's worth..........

Threshold: -10dB
Noise Floor: -40 dB
Ratio: 3:1
Attack Time: 0.6 sec
Decay Time: 4.0 sec

First I am not familiar with audacity but there are a couple of things in general. One, a compressor can be used a number of ways for a number of things. But is not generally considered to be used to add warmth per se. It is used to as the name implies to compress the signal, that is to bring down or lessen the overall dynamic range of the signal, soft to loud. But it can, if used correctly bring a bit more presence to an element in the mix or as some would say to bring that element a bit more forward in the mix. Weather or not one would use it for solo acoustic guitar is of course totally subjective and depends on what you might want and like any tool they can be used to bring beauty or to butcher.

Simply put a quick compression 101 which you may or may not already know

Attack time is how quickly the compressor acts upon the signal
Decay, sometimes and more correctly in a comp. called Release is how quickly the compressor lets go or stops compressing the signal.
So with that in mind the slower the attack, the more of the uncompressed signal and detail will come trough and be heard. Which for acoustic guitar IMO is important. so here is the suggestion
I am assuming those Attack and Decay times are in milliseconds. If so try setting them much slower, more in the 2. to 5. ms maybe even 7. to 10. ms for attack and for Decay maybe something along the lines of 30. to 50. maybe more depending on the particular comp.
Try setting the ratio to 1.5 to 1 or so
and try setting the threshold to -5

For reverb if you have a pre delay setting, the more or longer the pre delay time the more unprocessed sound comes through before the reverb kicks in which again IMO helps keep more detail and is good for both Gtr and vocal.

On more thought, if in fact as Fran said in Audascity you cant preview your adjustments in real time. (which honestly kinda sucks) because in real time you are not actually printing to the file so can try and change anything and you haven't yet committed it to the file . In any case, just as suggested duplicate several copies of a section you feel really represents your playing and render those different adjustments to see what you think. Hope this helps.

[bbrown]

Thanks Fran and Kev.

The info and advice is really helpful. I'll try some of these suggestions with future tunes. Lots to learn!

Moon, I totally agree about the jangle. I think I need to get a decent set-up on this guitar. There is an awful lot of noise, especially in lowered tunings. The hiss I was not able to detect so much with the limits of my speakers. I wonder if some of that is the H4N and/or whatever YouTube does to mangle the sound.