Help me make an expensive mistake

[garra]

Hej there!

TL;DR: Another newbie that can't decide between Taylor, Martin or both and is wondering whether Taylor's "Urban Ash" is more than a marketing gag.

The long version:
I've played electric guitar for some 17 years now (think folk metal, psychedelic rock, a bit of blues and jazz) and have changed country and careers to something that actually makes me a bit of money. So for the first time ever I've dared venture into the realm of acoustic (specifically: steel-string) guitars. So far I relied on Ovation rentals to get me through gigs, frankly because I saw them on the gear lists of artists I liked. Now I want to buy a proper one for myself.

"Go big or go home", I told myself. After all I'm at the point where I want to buy a guitar that'll last 20-30 years and not leave me wanting (as if..), and maybe even retains some resale value.

After what feels like hundred hours of lurking, reading up on threads, guitar types and makers I've finally come around to asking for the same piece of advice that everyone does. Not without finding a good local guitar shop (in Central Europe) and trying guitars for 7 or so hours.

It all came down to what everyone said it would come down to: I found a Taylor 414ce-R that played absolutely heavenly. Its intonation was better than most electric guitars I've played in my life. Strings were buttery-smooth (I'll admit I'm biased towards Elixir, my sweat melts regular strings within days). The lead sound was something to behold and had me craving for more. Only the looks aren't for me, it will sadly never be a guitar I'll appreciate aesthetically. Can't have it all.

Then I played a Martin 000-16 to compare. And I liked the sound even more. It somehow felt down-to-earth. Rhythm riffs flowed easy, "folk-like" chords just sounded right. But my hands were struggling; it was very obviously a different instrument than what I was used to. The lack of cutaway didn't help.

After a week of thought I figured: Why not..both? A Martin 000-15M Streetmaster is very affordable, and sound-wise the very opposite of the Taylor (the 000-16 was sold at this point). I drove out to the shop, played for another hour or so, and they made a very good bundle offer.

Only, after listening to my reasoning, there was talk of Taylor-324ce Builder's Edition. Allegedly, the marriage of warm, mid-heavy mahagony and Taylor-style playability. And looks to kill. Only it's not available; even worse, it has been on back-order for 3 months now. It will literally arrive whenever, hopefully before summer. Nobody in Europe seems to have it, certainly nobody in the small country I'm in, and borders are rather closed. Very few have demo'd it. The marketing material is, as can be expected from Taylor, very loud & proud about the repurposed "Urban Ash" used.

Now I'm stuck in a "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" situation. Do I wait for a guitar that might never come, and has very high expectations to fulfil? Do I get two guitars; one that's kinda ugly (I know..) and a guitar that is a bit painful to play, but also "cheap" enough to play rough with and use in touring?

Getting all three is out of my price range, buying used is virtually impossible (I blame Covid). I don't know about "urban" ash as material, and have no way to demo the guitar any time soon. The shop was sold-out in mahagony Taylors, except 12-fret, so I couldn't even compare a regular 324. I'm really thankful for any input you can give me in regards to either the urban ash 324 or the situation I'm in. It really is a first.

Thank you for reading all this, and stay healthy.



PS: I did try Furchs, but sadly none available here are to my specs regarding nut width and features. Also tried Gibsons, being an avid SG and Firebird player, and about five more European "name" brands. Oddly enough, it came down to those two that marketing/forums biased me to beforehand.

[woodbox]

First- Welcome to AGF.

Second- thank you for a very well written post.
This is going to be fun.

Third- I have thoughts, but I must run for now and will write later.

Fourth- I am hoping those who like to say :
“You will have to decide for yourself, no one can tell you what’s right for you.”
will refrain from such useless comments.

Again, welcome to the forum.

[garra]

Thank you for the warm welcome!

I feel a little bad about being the typical "drive-by" registration that's looking for advice first and foremost. Hopefully this'll turn into something more and be the start of a life-long journey.

[Mezner]

Welcome to AGF!

I wouldn't say urban ash is all marketing; Taylor prides itself in sourcing and using sustainable woods for their guitars and urban ash is just that-- repurposed ash tree wood from city trees that were felled and removed.

Is it a deviation from common tone woods like mahogany, rosewood, walnut and the rest? Most definitely, but I'd like to imagine Taylor found something significant in its tonal properties (I've personally never played or heard an urban ash guitar in person).

I think a good guitar rule to live by is, if it sounds good and plays good, its a good buy. I personally have no preference for brand as long as the guitar fulfills those two requirements. I've learned over the years that if a neck doesn't work with you from the get go, there's a high chance you'll never bond with the guitar and just end up taking a loss later down the road.

I have found that Taylors tend to be the most "playable" off the wall, great action and great necks (if you're more tempted towards the thinner-side). The way they designed their necks makes it easy for electric guitar players to transition to. They also tend to have a brighter/balanced voicing, which is why the 000-16 you tried had more of a "down-to-earth" tone.

I can't really speak for the 324 or other variants of Taylors around that range, I've really only dabbled in the x14 and x16 models, other than my 510 so hopefully there's someone here who can attest to them.

[donlyn]

Hey garra,

I think it might be a good idea for you to write down (and/or post if you wish) exactly what is was about the Taylor 414ce-R that you don't like. For most players, a guitar that plays smoothly and sounds great is a hard one to pass up. Some players don't want a cutaway, but you mentioned the lack of one was an issue on the Martin, so that can't be a problem. And by your own text, you really liked everything ('heavenly') but the looks.

Presuming that the 414ce-R is a spruce over rosewood (the 'R' is for rosewood) guitar, I would probably buy it in a heartbeat, as that is my favorite wood combination (I have 4 guitars with these woods, all different). But everyone is entitled to what pleases them, so seriously ask yourself what is it that you can't live with? If it 'walks' like a guitar, sounds like a guitar, and plays smoothly, then it's a guitar.

I have two of the Taylor 400-R series (412e-R Grand Concert and a 458e-R 12 string Grand Orchestra) and they are great guitars and both look and sound great to me. So it does come down to taste. And being a 400 series, there is little bling with it, but the guitar itself is all that is important. And the 414 shape is a bit more like a jumbo than an OM. To me that's also a plus.

Tough decision, so good luck with it. De gustibus non disputandum.

And shouldn't the title of your thread read "Help me from making an expensive mistake" ?

Don
.

[DCCougar]

I don't know why you seem to be limiting yourself to Taylor & Martin. I used to think a Gibson J45 would be the peak of my guitar acquisitions, but long story short, such dream got waylaid by a jumbo Guild. Never looked back.

[jklotz]

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably opt for that 414ce-R that you know you like. You're not crazy about the ascetics, I get it. But if all the other boxes are checked and you've physically had it in your hands, it's a safer bet.

I played an urban ash guitar, and although I loved the builders edition appointments, I wasn't crazy about the tone. Sounded a bit nasally and seemed to lack a bit of low end to my ears. Of course that was the one I played, I haven't tried other examples.

As for the 2 guitars - Over here, the vaccine is starting to get administered. By the end of the summer, I think a lot of things, guitar building and shipping included, will be getting back to normal, or close to normal, and the supply chains will start to open back up. If you can get 1 you know you like now and wait for a little while, I think you'll have a much better selection, probably at a better price.

Hope this was useful.

[Kyle215]

You mentioned that your hands were struggling on the Martin... they do come with a pretty high action from the factory, and benefit from a good setup, for what it’s worth (not sure if that was your issue, but FYI)

[Jim Owen]

Hi Garra,
Welcome to the forum. I’ve no decent advice on your current quandary. I will say that it’s quite likely that your first good acoustic won’t be your last. (You know this from your electric experiences—our tastes evolve, our ears and hands become used to certain guitars.)

You’ve got two good choices. Pick what you reckon you’ll play the most right now.

And it’s true that Martin sets its action differently from the factory than does Taylor. The first Martin I ever played was my buddy’s D 35. I could barely fret the thing! Ironically, I later played Martins for 30 plus years as my primary acoustics. Now my 000 18 shares playing time with a Gibson J 50.

[roylor4]

The REGULAR Taylor 324 in Mahogany and Blackwood is hands-down the best sounding Taylor I have ever played. My tonal preferences go more towards the warmth of a Martin than the brighter and more articulate (to me) sound of most Spruce topped Taylor's.

It has a warmth and depth that is often hard to find in some Taylor's along with benefit of the typical fantastic Taylor action straight out of the box.

I would be shocked if you played a regular 324 and were not impressed. I'm not a "Taylor guy" and I was, very much.

[musicman1951]

I'm not sure I've ever seen an ugly Taylor, but to each his own. For me a guitar that sounds great and feels great is going home with me, but I don't spend a lot of time looking at them. If it really bothers you there are a lot of other guitars in the world.

As to the Martin - you need a setup. Any guitar can be made to feel more like you desire, assuming you're not talking about string spacing. I take every new guitar to my local guy and he has me play a bit and talk about what I want. It's not going to feel like an electric, but it shouldn't be a struggle to play - especially if you're not so heavy handed with a pick you need a lot of clearance.

You could buy one, play if for a few months and hope the pandemic is more under control by then so we could resume normal shopping. Honestly, with your glowing description of the Taylor I'd be tempted to buy it and see if I didn't become more comfortable with the looks. If not you can always trade it later.

[rmp]

I find nothing ugly about the Taylor *14 series. I have an 814CE DLX V, it's a beautiful guitar, I love everything about it.

About the waiting and the ordering, the supply chain is an absolute disaster and it's with just about everything, from Guitars to Bedroom sets, to Appliances.

If you're out shopping for almost anything it's not in stock, there's really no way to determine the wait time, regardless of what the store will tell you.

I can tell you first hand, they've got about as much control and knowledge about this as you have over changing the weather. We ordered some furniture in October, we're still getting "delay" messages from the store. And it's one of the larger volume chains in this area. If they aren't getting the stuff, no one is.

Most of the online music stores have "more on the way" listed on just about everything other than mass produced small item tickets. So keep that in mind WRT ordering anything.

And you're martin, as already suggested needs a setup. The one fact about Taylor that remains pretty consistent, (the 814 is my fourth Taylor) Factory setups are almost always good to go from the point of delivery. You're seeing this first hand with what you've already described.

don't fight with the martin, get it setup asap.

[garra]

That's a lot of useful input, I'll take it from the top!

@ Mezner:
Full disclosure: I work in the event industry. And I found little sustainable about it. In fact, we actively tried to move a previous operation to be more sustainable, and it turned out to be not a very fruitful endeavour. So while I appreciate the spearheading ideas and environmental consciousness Taylor as a brand shows, I feel it does not strongly affect my personal choice of guitar. I fear you are right about the "if it feels right and sounds right, it's a good buy" thing. That's just hard to argue with. I can attest to the easy transition.

@ donlyn:
In fact, I did something like that in the store. The cutaway is a plus, as are the electrics. I don't like the looks (that feels incredibly vain, even worse when written down; but it's a high-priced item that will be in my life a long time?) and the sound is a bit too bright, or "smiley-EQ'd" for my ears once I go into strumming. This very distinct sound signature limits its use case somewhat to me. Nothing a good engineer (or player) can't work around, but as far as inspiration goes it comes with a unique flavour that won't quite fit half the things I'm doing. On the other hand, tastes change, and maybe I'll find a few new feelings to express. It seems like a bit of a gamble. Or maybe I'll get lost in trying different darker string/pick combinations until it drives me mad and I don't touch the instrument for too long. I have a bit of a tendency to hyperfocus on the wrong things, sometimes.
It is spruce over rosewood indeed! I'll count that as a strong vote for Taylor in my book.
Regarding the thread title, I feel like either way there will be some buyer's remorse to deal with. A mix of GAS and "the grass is greener"-syndrome. Which is incredibly silly in the first place, which I "deal" with by lampshading.

@ DCCougar:
A J45 was part of my original trial run, but somehow the neck weirded me out. My fingers were expecting an electric guitar, but it wasn't? There was that day, sadly, no spark to speak of.
Guilds are mostly sold-out (so many guitars are, it's like everyone and their granddad picked up high-end western guitar buying as their hobby during the pandemic). The only ones available for a test-drive is the out-of-my-league F512E, a D40, a D24E and an M-20E. Neither of which has cutaways, which is a minor negative point in my book. Can you recommend either? How do they compare, or rather, how would you describe yours?

@ jklotz:
It was, thank you! End of summer seems so far away, and then it comes too soon. I think supply might pose an issue until around autumn. I don't know if the 324ce-BE is in any way limited, but it feels like only very specific models trickle down to our local stores. I cannot disagree with the 414 being a safe bet.

@ Kyle215:
Actually, good point. I might have it set up at the store, that's an extra they love to throw in for free (and the 414 was set up by them, if I remember correctly).

@ Jim Owen:
I am afraid so.
What made you pick up the Martins again and again? Did your fingers adjust to the action, or how did you cope?

@ roylor4:
I would absolutely love to try it, but I've checked with multiple stores, and it just isn't available over here. It looks great, and your testimony made me triple-check. I think I'll call around tomorrow to find out why it's sold out. The 12-fret version however is available, I've played it and found it isn't too bad, but not what I'm looking for in a lot of ways. Might've been due to ear fatigue, it was one of the last guitars I played that day.

@ musicman1951:
It's an odd combination of bright top and too-big inlays that throws me off. Can't quite put my finger on it, it just doesn't speak to me. What you're suggesting, both with having the Martin set up and going for the Taylor and getting used to it, has been on my mind. Especially after more people recommend properly set-up Martins. The used market is close to empty right now, so I have no idea how much of a hit I'd actually have to take if I were to sell the guitar at some point. Especially with the freshly-gained money burning a hole in my pocket I'm afraid of pulling the trigger to fast, maybe overly so.

@ rmp:
I see where you're coming from, I can see their appeal. It just isn't much for me. Different strokes for different folks, I reckon. Stores so far have been honest about their supply chain and described the situation much like you did. Five guitars might arrive tomorrow, or next year, they simply don't know. I had them put me on the wait list so it's reserved until I've played it, but it's been a few months since the last 324 came through, and I'm not first on the list. Another vote for a set-up Martin, then.



I'm slowly starting to get the feel that either sourcing/trying a leftover 324ce/-BE (yeah, right.. ) *or* just buying both but pestering the shop into throwing in a setup and loving the Taylor for it's playability might be the way to go.

[Bob from Brooklyn]

This is a gigging guitar? Unless you're in a boy band I'd get the 414ce-R.

[Scotso]

There is no right answer. Get the guitar that fits your music. For me a Taylor is an odd duck for bluegrass. But for you it might be perfect. Fingerstyle guys tend to like Taylors a lot.

PS- as has been said, Martins are poorly set up coming out of the factory and generally need one immediately post purchase. They can be made to play like Taylor