The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Archtops

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 06-23-2013, 06:05 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 234
Default

When discussing archtops on this forum, we should only be talking about solid wood instruments designed to be acoustic guitars. (Not 6120s or ES-335s!)

Steve's "stroke vs. strum" and "glide vs. pick" descriptions are as good as it gets. But of course you can strum and pick as well; the main point is that your old flattop techniques don't all translate precisely to playing the archtop.

As for single note playing, dig up some Eddie Lang recordings from the late 1920s up until his death in 1933. He played a 16" Gibson L-5 with a fantastic and (to me) never truly duplicated style of chords, percussive single note rhythmic patterns, and virtuosic melody/lead playing. His tone showcases the instrument in its essence: bright, cutting, but also sweet and rich. This is important because it occurred before acoustic archtop players started trying to sound "jazzy" (which meant like an electric archtop in many cases). It literally all changed with Charlie Christian and that blessed/cursed pickup! The acoustic archtop became suddenly and prematurely obsolete to generations of guitarists...

I'm lucky to own a few great vintage Gibson archtops as well as a couple of modern luthier built customs. In the past I've very much enjoyed Eastman archtops such as the 604, 805, and 904 models. For the money, the 600 series Eastman models dedicated to Jim Fisch are among the best to me. The AR-605 is a non-cutaway acoustic archtop with mahogany back and sides for a warmer, smoother tone than the traditional maple.
__________________
Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018
1928 Gibson L-5
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-23-2013, 06:15 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 234
Default

[Duplicate post - sorry]
__________________
Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018
1928 Gibson L-5

Last edited by rpguitar; 06-23-2013 at 06:16 AM. Reason: Dupe, please delete
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-23-2013, 06:46 AM
Petespix Petespix is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 215
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drplayer View Post
I'm intrigued by Archtops and always have been. Aesthetically I think they're cool looking, and I love the sound. I associate them with jazz, because that's my limited experience with them, but I'm sure they're much more diverse that that. Can anyone give me the scoop on them..."Archtops 101" so to speak.

Also, are there any good quality Archtops being made that won't break the bank (maybe under $1500)? I'd like to stay with an American made guitar, but price is a consideration since this is an experiment of sorts; so, Made in U.S.A. is not a must have. Thanks in advance for your help...

-Dale
I can't speak for new guitars to your specs but there are a lot of vintage archtops that are American made and under $1500 that are gems. I'm lucky to have just picked up a very good condition Gretsch 1937 Model 35 for much less than half of your price point.

Are you looking for acoustic only or one with a PU?

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:02 AM
RiloKiley RiloKiley is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,034
Default

I've been looking for an acoustic archtop for ages, new or vintage doesn't matter much too me as long as it is in good playing condition.

My problem is that there are so few of them around. Probably the only archtop that is common in my neck of the woods (Edmonton, Canada), is the Godin 5th Avenue, and I don't like the acoustic tone of that guitar.

Other than that, pretty much no Eastmans or Loars that I am aware of, and few if any vintage archtops, except maybe in the pawnshop market, and even that seems a bit unlikely.

For me, an acoustic archtop WITHOUT a pickup is an absolute must. I've windowshopped online a great deal, but I'm not sure if I want to buy sight unseen yet, I probably need to find a good shop or retailer that sells online and can speak in detail about these guitars.

Anyways, I also always post this song when discussing acoustic archtops, amazing technique facilitated by what archtops bring to the table...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJYLfBMPuic
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:09 AM
Eldergreene Eldergreene is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 324
Default

Ditto the comment recommending listening to Eddie Lang - I'd just add that if you can track down the acoustic duet stuff done by Lang/ Dick McDonagh and/or Carl Kress you can hear early L5 acoustic sound in all its full glory,( & thereby leading to an eternity of frustration in trying to replicate same! )..
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:11 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 234
Default

Good advice. Also, two Lang tracks come to mind to hear him on solo guitar:

April Kisses
Prelude
__________________
Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018
1928 Gibson L-5
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:16 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiloKiley View Post
Anyways, I also always post this song when discussing acoustic archtops, amazing technique facilitated by what archtops bring to the table...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJYLfBMPuic
Yes! And Julian's guitar is a 1932 L-5, basically exactly what Eddie Lang was playing. It is so fabulous that we get to hear a contemporary master demonstrate a classic vintage instrument with the benefit of modern recording technology (and his unreal chops/musicianship).
__________________
Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018
1928 Gibson L-5
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:32 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,188
Default

Late to the party...great info here.

I have a Loar 600...about as cheap as you can get an all solid wood box with the vintage vibe.

The Godins are well built, but a different aesthetic...the acoustic ones are more like an old silvertone or something, but actually playable...the single pickup version smokes though, for an es-125 type vibe, but that's not what we're talking about here.

A word about Eastmans...they're x braced, and voiced verry differently from the Loar, if you're considering budget archies...more modern sounding, a bit more "polite." A great sound too, just different.
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:55 AM
shark81 shark81 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 40
Default archtops

I have had my Loar LH 300 for a few weeks and could not be happier
sounds great plays great and very very cool.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-23-2013, 08:20 AM
WordMan WordMan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,696
Default

1930's Gibson-made Kalamazoos can be had for $800 - $1,500 based on my look around. I got one a few months ago and love it - X-braced so it has a bit more richness than a pressed-top guitar with parallel bracing.
__________________
An old Gibson and a couple of old Martins; a couple of homebrew Tele's
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-23-2013, 08:51 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Isle of Albion
Posts: 22,067
Default

[QUOTE=rpguitar;3520144]When discussing archtops on this forum, we should only be talking about solid wood instruments designed to be acoustic guitars. (Not 6120s or ES-335s!)

I quite agree RP - and part of my reason for attempting to make this point is because if one looks at the Wikipedia entry for arch-tops - then you'll see no "real" arch-tops, just the similarly looking guitars which are really just decks for elctrickery.


[QUOTE=rpguitar;3520144]As for single note playing, dig up some Eddie Lang recordings from the late 1920s up until his death in 1933. He played a 16" Gibson L-5 with a fantastic and (to me) never truly duplicated style of chords, percussive single note rhythmic patterns, and virtuosic melody/lead playing. His tone showcases the instrument in its essence: bright, cutting, but also sweet and rich. This is important because it occurred before acoustic archtop players started trying to sound "jazzy" (which meant like an electric archtop in many cases). It literally all changed with Charlie Christian and that blessed/cursed pickup! The acoustic archtop became suddenly and prematurely obsolete to generations of guitarists. [QUOTE=rpguitar;3520144]

RP, I do not dispute this, nor the fact that one of the most famous L-5 users was Maybelle Carter who developed the £"Carter scratch- on it., however surely you will agree that the main purpose for the arch-top design is/was to provide a loud acoustic rhythm instrument for big bands.

Best,

Ol' Andy
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-23-2013, 09:43 AM
WordMan WordMan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,696
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
Steve made the point early in his post about needing to sharpen up your technique to play an archtop guitar, and I'll concur with him on that. Every note you play on an archtop stands out in stark relief when compared to the same thing played on an flattop, so if you have a watery sense of time or have allowed the lush tone of the flattops you're used to let you develop some bad habits, all of those things will be painfully obvious once you start trying to play the same music on an archtop.
Yes, I have found this to be the case as I dip my toe into Archtop Land. I started this thread:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=298583

To try to put into words how an archtop seems to help me focus on saying More with Less....
__________________
An old Gibson and a couple of old Martins; a couple of homebrew Tele's
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:45 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
however surely you will agree that the main purpose for the arch-top design is/was to provide a loud acoustic rhythm instrument for big bands.
Well... I realize that's the conventional wisdom, but I wonder if we aren't reshaping things a bit through the clear lens of historical perspective. I'm inclined to believe that the design was simply a successful experiment to create a useful instrument for the music of the age. Volume would be just a part of that.

Remember, it was actually 1922 when the 16" L-5 was presented. Big jazz bands were not prominent yet. I realize there were other ensembles though, and banjos dominated as strumming rhythm instruments along with flattop guitars. But often things are less highly strategized then we imagine them to be, and so I think the archtop just got adopted because it happened to work.

Actually if you read some of the old ad copy from back then, Gibson touts the "clear" and " vibrant" tone of the new L-5, not the loudness. Also, Eddie Lang's output is mostly small ensemble work, with a majority being duets with Joe Venuti's violin. All I'm saying is that there's more to archtops than volume. I think people sometimes explain them as "meant to be loud" when they don't actually like the tone.
__________________
Pre-War Guitar Co. Model D and OM-2018
1928 Gibson L-5
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:23 AM
drplayer's Avatar
drplayer drplayer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,292
Default

I really appreciate all the feedback, opinions, history, knowledge, etc. Thanks to all who contributed...very helpful and educational!

Mr. DeRosa - I sent you a pm...thank you.

-Dale
__________________

Martin 000-28EC
'71 Harmony Buck Owens American
Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J-45
Gold Tone PBR-D Paul Beard Signature Model resonator

"Lean your body forward slightly to support the guitar against your chest, for the poetry of the music should resound in your heart."
-Andrés Segovia
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-23-2013, 11:50 AM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 5,744
Default

I'm a newly-minted archtop owner and very new to this game myself.

I thought I'd share what might be a slightly "off the beaten path" perspective on archtops. Many seem to associate an archtop with jazz and rhythm playing. While I appreciate and respect that kind of music, I have little to no interest in playing that myself. I got my archtop for entirely different reasons. I was inspired to look for a vintage Epiphone Olympic by listening to Gillian Welch and David Rawlings and how they use an archtop for their unique old-time/folk/alternative country/bluegrass songs and sound. Very different from what archtops are being used for mostly. I use mine in bluegrass jams and people love it.

I got lucky and found a 1933 Olympic on eBay not too long ago. Far from being high-end, this is a plywood guitar that packs a punch. Its small size makes it sound very mid-rangey, punchy and a bit nasal in a good way. My girlfriend nailed it when she said, "that guitar sounds like a train."

I can play it soft, but when I dig in, its volume actually overpowers many a dreadnaught. It is a guitar with sort of a mandolin feel to it. I find it very inspiring to learn on and discover new ways of playing guitar.

You can hear this gem in action in this video of Dave Rawlings playing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxPTQDP2bRQ

Last edited by DesertTwang; 06-23-2013 at 11:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Archtops

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=