Thinking about removing a K&K. Better alternative, or just add Ultra Tonic Upgrade?

aschroeder · #1 09-22-2023, 01:18 PM

My Applegate SJ has a K&K mini pickup and I'm looking at options to replace it. This is my first time using a K&K, and in this particular guitar it is just a bear to deal with. The low end bass is so powerful it is nearly impossible for me to EQ it down to a point where it won't feedback in a live setting.

I know James May has an Ultra Tonic upgrade that can help resolve this issue. But I feel like it is a gamble to spend that much to "fix" a pickup I find unusable.

I have a Schatten HFN in two other guitars and have been very happy with it. I was planning to remove the K&K for another Schatten, but there are other soundboard transducer options I haven't tried.

I tried out the Baggs Lyric last year and didn't like it because it too much of a good thing and it picked up sounds I didn't want. I also want to keep a battery out of my guitar, so that excludes the new Baggs HiFi or the Trance Amulet.

I see my options as:

1. Adding the Ultra Tonic upgrade to my K&K
2. Installing another Schatten HFN
3. Trying out the Dazzo pickup

4. Any other recommendations?

jseth · #2 09-22-2023, 02:19 PM

I had the K&K Mini in a Goodall Grand Concert, and I tried all sorts of things to get a good tone from it - never did find that "sweet spot"... it sounded okay, but, I want my guitars to sound better than that!

I now have Dazzos in both my 6 and 12 string acoustics, and to my ear, they are a significant improvement over the K&K Mini.

I would suggest spending some time with Teddy Randazzo on the phone to find out which ones would work best for your guitar - I have 60's in my Goodall Concert Jumbo (which is a mini-jumbo size) and the same in my 12 string (also a mini-jumbo) - and get very clear on the installation process. I love how the Dazzos can be "tuned" during the install while the epoxy is wet enough to move them slightly.

When I had mine installed (by a wonderful Forum member, Vancebo - and then Teddy did the 12 string), I had my PA set up so I could hear what they sounded like through the system I use... makes really good sense! So, I KNOW that they sound great through my Bose rig; surprisingly, they sound very good through any of the other amplification sources I've used, as well.

Of course, the K&K is already installed, so it may be more cost-effective to go for the James May work-around? I'm not sure what's involved with that...

SFCRetired · #3 09-22-2023, 03:09 PM

I know about as much about this to make me sound really stupid. But I had that same problem going through my Fishman SA330. I also have the sub, so I just don't use my sub and it took care of it.

So what are you feeding it into would be my question. Billy Strings/Molly Tuttle and many more use a K&K on stage. Not sure what else they have.

If you don't like it there is no use in fighting it, get something you will like that fits your needs.

jonfields45 · #4 09-22-2023, 03:29 PM

Any chance you are using floor monitors? If so, try reducing the bass in the monitor feed. I gave up on floor monitors long ago as they point up through your guitar to your ears. I put my main(s) high and behind so that I can hear what the audience hears without exciting my guitar with the amplified sound.

Given you already have the K&K, James May's option is well liked and a logical next step. Also, you can tune its response to balance feedback resistance and overall tone.

Another way to go would be to use an IR. Make me a recording of your instrument and then send me two versions. The original mic recording, and a second one where you EQ'ed the mic channel bass to where you think the feedback problem might be fixed with tolerable tone (and maybe a third more radical bass cut). I'll send you sets of IRs to try out for each recording. I don't know if this will work and I would not buy an IR pedal just for this experiment.

aschroeder · #5 09-22-2023, 04:35 PM

I'm a solo act and I run it through a few pedals and then into a Bose L1 Compact. No monitors. When I plug straight in (with no EQ) it massively feeds back without even playing a note.

I run it through Boss EQ-200 to adjust the bass and then through an Optima Air pedal for further EQ and adding an IR. On the Boss pedal I have to cut 100% of the low end and then additional bass cut on my Optima Air pedal. Then the sound is then usable, but if I have to play at a louder volume it will still feed back. I honestly don't know how people can use the K&K.

When I recorded my IR I got the best results when I actually boosted the problem frequencies into the Optima Air when I recorded. The pedal then adjusted the IR to reduce the problem low frequency. It does work, but even after all of my effort it is still not usable at louder volumes. I've never tried the Tonedexter.

Mobilemike · #6 09-22-2023, 05:42 PM

From what you described, the Ultra Tonic upgrade will do exactly what you’re hoping for. I installed it in my Lowden and it’s great for me.

Doug Young · #7 09-22-2023, 07:00 PM

The thing with SBTs is that they're unpredictable, and can act different in different guitars (even ignoring different tastes, different gear, etc). I've had very little trouble with K&Ks feeding back over the years, tho I don't usually play very loud, etc. But I recently put a K&K in a new guitar, and have never encountered such feedback issues. Just checking it out at home, if I brought the guitar up to the level that I could even hear sound coming out of the speakers it just went into a howl. it fed back at below speaking volume. Way below. Unreal. None of my other K&K guitars do this, so when someone says they can't imagine how someone could use a K&K, I can see how that's possible, depending on who knows what variable.

FWIW, I decided that guitar was a good candidate for an Ultratonic, given it's behavior, and sure enough, it's completely different, no issue.

aschroeder · #8 09-22-2023, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The thing with SBTs is that they're unpredictable, and can act different in different guitars (even ignoring different tastes, different gear, etc).

Doug, thanks for sharing your experience. I've had other people tell me the same thing, so I guess I am just unlucky with this guitar. My SJ is extremely responsive with very good bass response. It is an incredible sounding guitar, but my guess is that is contributing to the problem with the K&K.

Did you add the upgrade kit to your problematic K&K, or did you uninstall it and go for a full UltraTonic installation? I'm not thrilled about trying to remove the superglued K&K sensors, but I'm also very hesitant to superglue more sensors to my bridge plate.

Doug Young · #9 09-22-2023, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aschroeder

Did you add the upgrade kit to your problematic K&K, or did you uninstall it and go for a full UltraTonic installation? I'm not thrilled about trying to remove the superglued K&K sensors, but I'm also very hesitant to superglue more sensors to my bridge plate.

I just had the new model installed. And had a tech who has done them before do it instead of trying to do it myself.

PaperMoon · #10 09-23-2023, 09:04 AM

I can heartily endorse the UltraTonic upgrade for your K&K--it made a world of difference in my 310. You still need to use a preamp to get the most out of it, but the difference for me was night and day.

martingitdave · #11 09-23-2023, 09:17 AM

If you like the tone and string balance of the K&K installation, besides the low end feedback, a good pedal with low cut filter or IR like Baggs VPDI or ToneDexter can be the savior. Otherwise, if you need a flexible on guitar solution the UltraTonic should help. Otherwise, remove the K&K, lightly sand off any bridge plate residue, and try others.

6L6 · #12 09-23-2023, 09:46 AM

When I gig I play and sing through either my Fishman Loudbox Mini or Fishman Loudbox Performer.

All of my guitars have K&K's in them and I never have any problem with feedback or tone issues. I just plug in and go.

Most of what I play involves fingerstyle picking and I wear a plastic thumbpick and two metal fingerpicks. That no doubt calms the bass response down somewhat. But even when playing with a flatpick I don't have any undesirable issues to deal with.

guitaniac · #13 09-23-2023, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6L6

When I gig I play and sing through either my Fishman Loudbox Mini or Fishman Loudbox Performer.

All of my guitars have K&K's in them and I never have any problem with feedback or tone issues. I just plug in and go.

Most of what I play involves fingerstyle picking and I wear a plastic thumbpick and two metal fingerpicks. That no doubt calms the bass response down somewhat. But even when playing with a flatpick I don't have any undesirable issues to deal with.

Using pics helps to avoid feedback by providing a stronger string attack and making it less necessary to boost the pickup signal gain into the danger zone. Picking with bare fingerpads in a noisy room is where I’ve run into problems with feedback and/or tubby tone. That’s happened with the Pure Mini, the Lyric, the iBeam and even the Anthem SL. Since I don’t want to give up on the option of picking with bare fingerpads in a noisy room, I’ve added a Baggs LB6 to the Lyric-equipped guitar and added soundhole mags to the iBeam-equipped and Anthem SL-equipped guitars.

Rightfully so or not, I’m still a little leery of the Ultra-Tonic. As Doug mentioned, SBTs are notoriously unpredictable. One forum member here has reported feedback problems with the Ultra-Tonic. (He said it was unusable in a difficult setting which was formerly handled well by a Matrix UST in the same guitar.) It’s been claimed that the Ultra-Tonic is as feedback resistant as a UST, but I suspect that’s not always the case.

aschroeder · #14 09-23-2023, 12:30 PM

My issue isn’t due to technique sine I get major feedback instantly even if I’m not playing (when I plug in direct). I also play mostly fingerstyle and I am not an aggressive strummer. The pickup is literally unusable without massive EQ.

Could it be due to a bad sensor? I purchased the guitar used and the K&K was already installed. I checked it with a mirror and the 3 sensor placement looks good.

fedexnman · #15 09-23-2023, 12:42 PM

Man I'd pull that K&K out of there . Get a razor blade . Find out if you get all the super glue off after you remove the k&k , if you don't hit it with some fine sandpaper . Id get a schatten hfn if that's what you are happy using . I have had k&ks they are ok , I have to eq alot of bass out of them too , also the mids as well that where you hear that peizo sound ( nasally , plastic , quack ,) and I find myself boosting the treble . Schatten hfn , dazzo , bagg hifi ? Pick your poison .