Room treatment materials - options to rockwool

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Acousticado

I intend to go the route that b1j has...that is to dyi my own acoustic panels using Rockwool. Given other things I have on my walls, likely I’m going to have to use 16”x48”x3” (actually 15”x47”) batts rather than 24” wide. I assume I’ll be losing 33% absorption efficiency which will hopefully be ok with the 12 or so panels I’ll place around the fairly large basement rec room.

With some of these panels, I’m thinking to install a narrow cross-piece of wood behind the front fabric covering to be able to affix a guitar wall hanger so as to use the panels as a backdrop to hang/display my guitars (my RH is good enough year round to leave out of cases).

For some other panels, I may want to hang some sort of art in front of the fabric. For yet a couple more at the far end of the room, I’m thinking to place a couple of panels behind the wall mounted TV. I’m wondering if such “obstructions” will significantly reduce panel absorption, or will the sound make its way to no apparent adverse performance.

Thanks for any feedback.

Tom, that’s a classy idea to hang guitars on the panels. If they’re acoustics, I wonder if you’ll get sympathetic vibrations. You know, like pounding a G chord in the Guitar Center acoustic room. That’s fun, but i wouldn’t want to record in there.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

That's because Safe'n'Sound doesn't have the acoustic properties of the Rockwool 60 or 80; Safe'n'Sound is less dense, so needs more thickness to do the job. It is cheaper, but it comes out in the wash.

I use 6" corner traps with Safe'n'Sound in my room, but 2" and 4" panels with OC703 on the walls and freestanding panels.

You’re happy with the absorption you get with the OC703 panels? Good before/after result? I also hear good things about the material.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by b1j

Tom, that’s a classy idea to hang guitars on the panels. If they’re acoustics, I wonder if you’ll get sympathetic vibrations. You know, like pounding a G chord in the Guitar Center acoustic room. That’s fun, but i wouldn’t want to record in there.

Likely so, but I think that would happen regardless of where the guitars are if left out in the recording space. I would think it to be quite common. If the sympathetic vibrations are a significant enough issue, I’d appreciate opinions on this. I like the look of “framing” the guitars with the backdrop panels as art pieces, while also saving wall space. Also, in my situation, I have a smallish cedar closet right beside my recording desk that I’m thinking may well serve as a vocal/acoustic guitar recording booth. I’ll have to figure out what treatment, if any, that space will need. So while recording in there, there will be no sound of sympathetic vibrations. While mixing it the main space, that’s where I’ll need to be mindful of it. Likely, I can do something simple to mostly mute the strings.

[broy]

Thank you all for the input, when I get to the room treatment portion of my recording journey - i'll be using rockwool... probably start with the 2 panels in a v shape and go from there.

Before spending on anything though, I keep hearing the input from Gordon Currie resonate in my head... or maybe that's my wife.

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

If you are starting out, why not try and see what you can do without room treatment, expensive microphones, specific plugins.

So I figured I'd set a baseline with what I have and go from there.

Below are 3 samples of songs I recorded with the simplest of recording set up, Apogee Mic plugged into an iPhone taking video. I tried to minimize background noise, get a good balance between the vocals and guitar, and have the gain on the mic turned up to get as close to clipping as possible.

I included 3 different songs... chords with a pick w/ singing, less chords more notes (still use a pick) with singing, finger picking with singing. I thought the dynamics of the different songs were different, didn't know if that would give any input into recording approach.

http://youtu.be/O-DwbK_fYwE
https://youtube.com/shorts/FdVrLVmaM6I?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/i7OqhUEeATU?feature=share

I think they're pretty rough, but really no idea where to turn first to improve.

QUESTION 1: With just this set up, would you have suggestions on what to do to improve the recording quality?

QUESTION 2: What should I be trying to listen for, for clues on where to focus?

For options to edit / control the recording set up:
* I already have a Presonus V44 interface and Presonus Studio One DAW.
* I already have Access to Garage Band[/LIST]
I've played with these a bit, and got different sounds, but not sure they were better sounds.

I really am just trying to get to good enough for friends and family, not too polished - but more polished than where I am currently... so my next question would be

QUESTION 3: Should I focus on learning the DAWs etc... or should I keep it simple, do what I can w/ basic room treatment and leave good enough alone.


Thanks to anyone who has thoughts on the above - rgds - bill

[TBman]

Originally Posted by b1j

Barry, that’s a pretty good price for not having to make them yourself. The jute seems hardy and scuff resistant, and the colors are a nice touch.

I do wonder about the plywood back. I guess if they’re going hard up against a wall, you have a hard surface at the back anyway. But I read that having a little air space in the back cuts down on reflections. Sound goes in, is partially absorbed, the remaining sound reflects on the wall, then travels back through the entire absorption panel on its way out. Double absorption? Who knows?

For me, an acoustically open back is important because I’m also going to use the panels as free-standing gobos around me when recording. I didn’t want a reflective surface close to the guitar.

I can see how the rigid ply back stabilizes the rectangular shape, which otherwise is subject to deformation at the corners (unlike a triangle, but I’m not going to make triangles!). But I came across a method to keep the corners square and still have an open back. Plus, there’s a 3/4” air gap in the back. Once I saw that, the light went on and I unwound myself from the axle and got to building them.

One prototype down, seven to go. I have to buy two more 1x4s for 49” lengths, and then finish the milling by planing all the pine to thickness. Maybe two hours’ work. Once that’s done, it’s a quick run through the Kreg jig, bore some fastening holes, screw them together, wrap and staple the fabric, and smooth the edges.

But at $90 a panel, I’m not saving much per hour of work: $800 for pre-made vs. about $330 material cost plus elbow grease to make them myself.

The ones I bought don't have a plywood back.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

That's because Safe'n'Sound doesn't have the acoustic properties of the Rockwool 60 or 80; Safe'n'Sound is less dense, so needs more thickness to do the job. It is cheaper, but it comes out in the wash.

I use 6" corner traps with Safe'n'Sound in my room, but 2" and 4" panels with OC703 on the walls and freestanding panels.

Safe’n’Sound is easier to find locally, and cheaper, but like others have said it doesn’t have as good of absorption at the lower frequencies, and the mud that we encounter in our home recordings is down in those lower frequencies. If you go to the manufacturer websites the acoustic absorption data is available. Owens Corning OC703 has similar properties as Rockwool Rockboard 60, and Rockboard 80 has greater and extended low frequency absorption. With the cost and labor for any type of panels I’d suggest starting with the most appropriate absorption material, then determine the required thickness (which will most likely be different thickness for clouds, walls, gobos, and corner traps).

I live in a metro area and didn't have any luck finding Rockboard 60 or 80, or OC703, at Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. I ended up ordering the Rockboard 80 from a Do It Best Hardware store in a small town outside of the cities. I also found a commercial insulation supply company in the metro area that would sell to the public; there I could get whatever I wanted but it was only available in larger amounts (I believe it was a bundle of twelve 24"x48"x2" panels.).

[b1j]

Originally Posted by TBman

The ones I bought don't have a plywood back.

I was going by the description in the link you provided. I guess they make different versions.

[keith.rogers]

Here’s a link to a “google Sheets” doc I made a few years back. You can see that while Safe’n’Sound is thicker, that thickness does equate to pretty much the same absorption - it’s just going to take up more space. (If the published specs have changed, please post links and I’ll up date this when I’m able (traveling for a while).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8-31SnWgk/edit

If anything, being able to procure the (“any”) of these materials locally is the best possible option if cost is a concern. Shipping a small amount was prohibitively expensive when I made my panels a few years back, I can’t imagine it’s anything but worse, though I’ve seen the 24” width occasionally available at some Lowes recently.

Regardless of the material you pick, wearing a mask, long sleeves and gloves while working with it is a good idea.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

Here’s a link to a “google Sheets” doc I made a few years back. You can see that while Safe’n’Sound is thicker, that thickness does equate to pretty much the same absorption - it’s just going to take up more space. (If the published specs have changed, please post links and I’ll up date this when I’m able (traveling for a while).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8-31SnWgk/edit

If anything, being able to procure the (“any”) of these materials locally is the best possible option if cost is a concern. Shipping a small amount was prohibitively expensive when I made my panels a few years back, I can’t imagine it’s anything but worse, though I’ve seen the 24” width occasionally available at some Lowes recently.

Regardless of the material you pick, wearing a mask, long sleeves and gloves while working with it is a good idea.

Keith, this is just what I wanted to see. I had seen bits of this a year ago when I was bouncing the idea around. This confirms the general impression I formed then. It’s nice to see it all in one place. Thanks for providing it.

This tells me that my flutter echo should fade away. That has been my goal all along: I want more freedom with mic distance. But I’ll need to watch out for low-end buildup. I should be able to high-pass while tracking. Maybe it’s time to use that 80 Hz switch on my SDCs?

But for mixing and mastering there will remain a low-frequency challenge. Knowing me, I’ll probably take a blind stab at it and check it in my car to build some good instincts over time. Good thing I don’t do this for a living.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by b1j

You’re happy with the absorption you get with the OC703 panels? Good before/after result? I also hear good things about the material.

I think Keith and ChuckS have answered the absorption question. I have a mix of Rockwool & OC703 panels, plus thicker Safe'n'Sound in the corners. It all works. Any except the Safe'n'Sound often needs to be procured from a commercial supply house, or ordered from an acoustical dealer like Acoustimac or GIK, and shipping can bite you. But I *am* happy with the results. At one point recently, I tried recording in a different room and it was awful. One listen in the headphones and I moved right back into the treated room. I am a firm believer it is worth it.

The main difference between the Rockwool 60/80 and OC703 is the stiffness. The Rockwool hangs together but is a bit "floppy" and needs some structure around it; OC703 is stiff and can even stand up on its own (though you'd want to cover it, and hitting or bending it could break it). So you might choose simply based on how you wanted to use it. OC703 might be a bit better for freestanding panels, though Rockwool would still work fine.

Another option might be the "kits" you can get from Acoustimac and maybe others. You get a frame, fabric to cover the front, and the insulation, and then put it together yourself for less than the pre-made versions. Often they do have the plywood back, but you can specify without, and then just cover it with your own fabric (muslin works fine). $54 will get you the materials for a 2'x4'x2" panel, plus tax and shipping.

[b1j]

After a year of “collecting information” (er, waffling), it feels so good to be moving along with the build. I’m fitting it in with a recently much busier work schedule. I made the first panel last month and took note of what to change for the next seven. Yesterday I finished the flattening for all the wood members (inside 1x2 frames and outside 1x4 frames) for all seven panels. I’m running through the steps for all panels, one step at a time.

[alohachris]

Aloha B1J,

I didn't need a year of "information gathering" on Room Treatment to dive into what just makes sense. I saw Fran Guidry's invaluable "Building a Broadband Absorber" video here at AGF around 20 years ago & knew it would work for me & save me lotsa money over store-bought gobo's. AND WHAT A HUGE SONIC DIFFERENCE IT MADE - THE BIGGEST!

It's the ONLY WAY to control & maximize your space & whatever signal chain you put it it for home recording.

It took a week for the OC 703 panels (2"x2'x4' panels doubled up to 4"x2'x4') to arrive (USE OC 703 rigid fiberglass for your gobos - NO PRO STUDIO USES ROCKWOOL OF ANY QUALITY - take minor precautions (mask, goggles, long-sleeves, gloves, outdoors, etc.) & DON'T FRAME IT OUT!.

After a trip to Walmart for covering material & tools (white burlap, Loctite 300 spray) hot-melt glue & gun, etc., I made nine, DIY OC 703 Free-Standing broadband absorbers over a weekend, using Fran's Video to start.

I didn't frame them out because using hard material is counterintuitive to the purpose of DIY gobos, right? OC 703 is free-standing.

Around my tracking space's sweet spot, I stood up two linked (w/ wires) panels in front of the mics, two behind me & two on either side of me - with one hanging (from a mic stand) above where I sat to control the reflecting frequencies & balance my sound. (For solo singing & acoustic instrument recordings - often for sale at my regular gigs).

I recorded that same Sunday night & was amazed by how good it instantly sounded, even before my major gear investments later. I came to realize that achieving consistent results was even more valuable than the improved clarity upon first impression.

Subsequently, I built 8 more absorbers to treat corners (floor to ceiling) of the large room as bass traps. Then I later added more absorbers around & above my tracking desk for editing & mastering & behind my monitors.

I ended up with a total of 24 panels to fully treat my space. They are holding up very well, very cleanable, durable & still portable & self-standing. I loan them out these days for remote projects because they work so well in controlling many spaces.

The point I'm trying to make is: Guys, just because discussing room treatment is not as sexy as say, discussing "$300 LDC's" (Ha!), you don't need a year of info gathering to improve your sound & consistency drastically almost instantly, to potentially sound as good as a pro recording studio, at home. I know you newbies are skeptical, right?

You don't need to be handy to make as many OC 703 broadband absorbers SAFELY as needed in a short time. Just dive in. DIY will Save You Some Cash - certainly a lot more than "a $300 LDC."

B1J, since you are starting out with DIY seven absorbers, keep in mind that you will probably expand that as your ears & knowledge of your recording space & gear are more developed. Keep in mind that you can always store the panels out of the way to use the space for something else, always a good selling point to a partner. Ha!

Good Luck! Let me know if you have any questions.

alohachris

https://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009...-on-the-cheap/

[johnnydobbers]

I will echo what AlohaChris has said...treatment of an acoustic recording space is paramount...I have 9 panels build out of OC and need to get more.

[j3ffr0]

Depending on how you value your time, it might just be simpler to buy the panels you want. That's what I do. I use https://www.gikacoustics.com. You can send them your room layout and the will give you free advice on things such as mix position and treatment. I'm a hard head so I tried many other things in addition to what their engineer recommended. And in the end their engineers recommendations are what sounded and measured best. I view them as a time and money saver.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha B1J,

I didn't need a year of "information gathering" on Room Treatment to dive into what just makes sense. I saw Fran Guidry's invaluable "Building a Broadband Absorber" video here at AGF around 20 years ago & knew it would work for me & save me lotsa money over store-bought gobo's. AND WHAT A HUGE SONIC DIFFERENCE IT MADE - THE BIGGEST!

It's the ONLY WAY to control & maximize your space & whatever signal chain you put it it for home recording.

It took a week for the OC 703 panels (2"x2'x4' panels doubled up to 4"x2'x4') to arrive (USE OC 703 rigid fiberglass for your gobos - NO PRO STUDIO USES ROCKWOOL OF ANY QUALITY - take minor precautions (mask, goggles, long-sleeves, gloves, outdoors, etc.) & DON'T FRAME IT OUT!.

After a trip to Walmart for covering material & tools (white burlap, Loctite 300 spray) hot-melt glue & gun, etc., I made nine, DIY OC 703 Free-Standing broadband absorbers over a weekend, using Fran's Video to start.

I didn't frame them out because using hard material is counterintuitive to the purpose of DIY gobos, right? OC 703 is free-standing.

Around my tracking space's sweet spot, I stood up two linked (w/ wires) panels in front of the mics, two behind me & two on either side of me - with one hanging (from a mic stand) above where I sat to control the reflecting frequencies & balance my sound. (For solo singing & acoustic instrument recordings - often for sale at my regular gigs).

I recorded that same Sunday night & was amazed by how good it instantly sounded, even before my major gear investments later. I came to realize that achieving consistent results was even more valuable than the improved clarity upon first impression.

Subsequently, I built 8 more absorbers to treat corners (floor to ceiling) of the large room as bass traps. Then I later added more absorbers around & above my tracking desk for editing & mastering & behind my monitors.

I ended up with a total of 24 panels to fully treat my space. They are holding up very well, very cleanable, durable & still portable & self-standing. I loan them out these days for remote projects because they work so well in controlling many spaces.

The point I'm trying to make is: Guys, just because discussing room treatment is not as sexy as say, discussing "$300 LDC's" (Ha!), you don't need a year of info gathering to improve your sound & consistency drastically almost instantly, to potentially sound as good as a pro recording studio, at home. I know you newbies are skeptical, right?

You don't need to be handy to make as many OC 703 broadband absorbers SAFELY as needed in a short time. Just dive in. DIY will Save You Some Cash - certainly a lot more than "a $300 LDC."

B1J, since you are starting out with DIY seven absorbers, keep in mind that you will probably expand that as your ears & knowledge of your recording space & gear are more developed. Keep in mind that you can always store the panels out of the way to use the space for something else, always a good selling point to a partner. Ha!

Good Luck! Let me know if you have any questions.

alohachris

https://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009...-on-the-cheap/

Thanks for the encouragement, Chris. I’ll have eight panels when these next seven are done. The calendar’s been full lately, and I couldn’t get into the shop today. Tomorrow, we’ll see: I have to prepare for two calculus tutoring sessions.

September doesn’t let up; I’ll be lucky to get two days a week in the shop for a while. I’d like to have my eight by mid-October.

Well, I’m using Rockwool, so it’s a good thing mine isn’t a recording studio.

Regarding your setup — great to hear you like the sound with the panels. Do you think the gobos behind the mics improve the sound?