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  #1  
Old 08-27-2023, 11:32 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Default any 10 string owners ....?

....who can recommend some tuning options. Recently got a used 10 cheap, and am perplexed by those extra 4 strings. Or maybe a good site that has some tuning options. I'm inclined to want to go to an alternative tuning even for the high 6. thanks
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Ovation 12 string 1515
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  #2  
Old 08-27-2023, 12:46 PM
Mandobart Mandobart is offline
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I have some 10 string instruments. They're all tuned in fifths.

- 10 string mandola that covers the range of a mandola and mandolin. C-G-D-A-E. Dualcourse strings, unison tuned.

- 10 string mandocello, same as the mandola above but an octave lower. The C, G and D string pairs use octave pairs. A and E are unison.

- 10 string Hardanger viola. Five bowed top strings tuned C-G-D-A-E and 5 sympathetic vibrating under strings, which I tune B, D, E, G and A.

A guitar with 10 separate strings (not pairs like a 12 string or mandolin) would be pretty tough to pull off. You need a longer scale and much heavier strings as you go below the guitar low E. Likewise you need a shorter scale and much lighter strings to go above the high E. I think a fan fret layout would be the way to go. Of course a classical with nylon strings could be more forgiving than steel strings regarding sloppiness or snapping. I don't have any nylon string guitars.

Then there's harp guitars....
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  #3  
Old 08-27-2023, 01:41 PM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Not an owner, but I've always been interested in one, ever since seeing Narciso Yepes in concert playing one. He's credited for having been the "inventor" of the modern, 10 string classical guitar.
Scale length was 664mm.

He came up with the idea of 4 extra strings to plug the gaps that a 6 string guitar has in terms of sympathetic resonance. Briefly, that means that you tune the extra strings to the notes on the fretboard that don't resonate as much naturally as others. The tuning goes like this: from top to bottom:
Top 6: E-B-G-D-A-E (same as std. tuning).
Extra 4 strings: low C, Bb/A#, Ab/G# and Gb/F# .
So, the lowest pitch occurs on the 7th string (low C). The bottom 3 strings match pitches found on the 5th and 6th strings.
Yepes' idea was that, even if he never frets the extra strings in any given piece, his tuning would make the guitar that much more naturally resonant overall.
There is an AGF member (nkpearson, I think) who's actually building one as far as I recall from a previous thread. Hopefully he'll chime in with more insights.
Do keep us informed of how it goes!
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Golf is pretty simple. It's just not that easy.
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  #4  
Old 08-27-2023, 03:30 PM
Mandobart Mandobart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann View Post
He came up with the idea of 4 extra strings to plug the gaps that a 6 string guitar has in terms of sympathetic resonance. Briefly, that means that you tune the extra strings to the notes on the fretboard that don't resonate as much naturally as others. The tuning goes like this: from top to bottom:
Top 6: E-B-G-D-A-E (same as std. tuning).
Extra 4 strings: low C, Bb/A#, Ab/G# and Gb/F# .
...
Yepes' idea was that, even if he never frets the extra strings in any given piece, his tuning would make the guitar that much more naturally resonant overall.
It does sound like an idea similar to the Hardanger fiddle or viola d'amour. Sympathetic strings that aren't played but provide resonance. It sure works on mine.
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  #5  
Old 08-27-2023, 04:27 PM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandobart View Post
It does sound like an idea similar to the Hardanger fiddle or viola d'amour. Sympathetic strings that aren't played but provide resonance. It sure works on mine.
Does it look something like this?

That's a pretty neat looking instrument. And new to me! Thanks for the intro.
Quote:
Sympathetic strings that aren't played but provide resonance.
Yes, except that, from what I can see, the extra strings on the Yepes guitar are "frettable".
I understand though that Yepes' initial goal was to create more resonance. There was very little, if anything, in the repertoire that was specifically written for the 10 string guitar when he started playing it in concert. That changed, once arrangements of known pieces were supplied to him, and maybe even compositions. I know there are some Schott publications from Yepes specifically for the 10 string.
Interesting stuff. You have some unusual instruments in your arsenal.
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Golf is pretty simple. It's just not that easy.
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"It ainít what you donít know that gets you into trouble. Itís what you know for sure that just ainít so."
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  #6  
Old 08-27-2023, 09:30 PM
Mandobart Mandobart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann View Post
Does it look something like this?
No it's a modern PNW interpretation of a Hardanger. Long - viola (not violin) size. Deep - nearly 3". Instead of scandanavian designs it's decorated with Pacific NW native artwork (Haida specifically). Natural colored western red cedar top, bigleaf maple neck, back and sides. And the scroll is a wolf's head, not a dragon. The body is a gamba shape vs traditional sharp-cornered violin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann View Post
You have some unusual instruments in your arsenal.
Yes, when I did solo shows my specialty was "obscure songs on obscure instruments." I've also got a Mandobird VIII solid body mandolin, an old 1930's Regal resonator mandolin, a 1930's Stahl banjolin (full 12" banjo pot on a mandolin neck) and an octave violin - regular violin with special octave strings so it plays in the cellorange.
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  #7  
Old 08-28-2023, 09:16 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann View Post
Not an owner, but I've always been interested in one, ever since seeing Narciso Yepes in concert playing one. He's credited for having been the "inventor" of the modern, 10 string classical guitar.
Scale length was 664mm.

He came up with the idea of 4 extra strings to plug the gaps that a 6 string guitar has in terms of sympathetic resonance. Briefly, that means that you tune the extra strings to the notes on the fretboard that don't resonate as much naturally as others. The tuning goes like this: from top to bottom:
Top 6: E-B-G-D-A-E (same as std. tuning).
Extra 4 strings: low C, Bb/A#, Ab/G# and Gb/F# .
So, the lowest pitch occurs on the 7th string (low C). The bottom 3 strings match pitches found on the 5th and 6th strings.
Yepes' idea was that, even if he never frets the extra strings in any given piece, his tuning would make the guitar that much more naturally resonant overall.
There is an AGF member (nkpearson, I think) who's actually building one as far as I recall from a previous thread. Hopefully he'll chime in with more insights.
Do keep us informed of how it goes!
I tried that . It didn't particularly stick. Now I'm doing some experimenting tuning the low four depending on what key I'm playing. It's interesting. It's next to impossible to fret the lowest two strings at all, so I figured to use them open diatonically with the chords I'm playing on the high 6. Next thing I'm gonna do is buy a set of colored nylons for the high 6 so they can be more easily distinguished . It's gets kinda of confusing down there jaja. thanks
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Goya g10, Yamaha CN525E, 10string classical, Babilon Lombard N, Ibanez GA5TCE
Alvarez a700 F mandolin, Epiphone Mandobird
Ovation 12 string 1515
Takamine F349, Takamine g340, Yamaha LL6M
'78 Fender Strat
Univox Ultra elec12string
Lute 13 strings
Gibson Les Paul Triumph Bass
Piano, Keyboards, Controllers, Marimba, Dusty Strings harp
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  #8  
Old 08-28-2023, 12:32 PM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurth View Post
I tried that . It didn't particularly stick. Now I'm doing some experimenting tuning the low four depending on what key I'm playing. It's interesting. It's next to impossible to fret the lowest two strings at all, so I figured to use them open diatonically with the chords I'm playing on the high 6. Next thing I'm gonna do is buy a set of colored nylons for the high 6 so they can be more easily distinguished . It's gets kinda of confusing down there jaja. thanks
Yeah, that makes sense, and it's more or less in line with the philosophy behind Yepes' approach. Might as well experiment with what works best for you. You might hit upon a tuning that really stands out.
Probably worth noting too that Yepes had commissioned world class luthier Jose Ramirez III back in the early 60s to build his prototype, so it was/is likely a top notch instrument when it was finally built. Not to mention in the playing hands of someone who could make the best of it.
Would love to hear how yours sounds, even if it's just some noodling around.
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Best regards,
Andre

Golf is pretty simple. It's just not that easy.
- Paul Azinger

"It ainít what you donít know that gets you into trouble. Itís what you know for sure that just ainít so."
Ė Mark Twain

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gitfiddlemann
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  #9  
Old 08-28-2023, 03:15 PM
kurth kurth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann View Post
Yeah, that makes sense, and it's more or less in line with the philosophy behind Yepes' approach. Might as well experiment with what works best for you. You might hit upon a tuning that really stands out.
Probably worth noting too that Yepes had commissioned world class luthier Jose Ramirez III back in the early 60s to build his prototype, so it was/is likely a top notch instrument when it was finally built. Not to mention in the playing hands of someone who could make the best of it.
Would love to hear how yours sounds, even if it's just some noodling around.
ok....see what I can mixup the next week or so. It's pretty resonant. A bear to tune. Did u see my post in the general forum? the photos have been removed where I purchased it....but I give some overview of the guitar. All wood, cedar top, made by a luthier in Leon. For the same price as a yamaha c40.
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Goya g10, Yamaha CN525E, 10string classical, Babilon Lombard N, Ibanez GA5TCE
Alvarez a700 F mandolin, Epiphone Mandobird
Ovation 12 string 1515
Takamine F349, Takamine g340, Yamaha LL6M
'78 Fender Strat
Univox Ultra elec12string
Lute 13 strings
Gibson Les Paul Triumph Bass
Piano, Keyboards, Controllers, Marimba, Dusty Strings harp
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  #10  
Old 08-28-2023, 04:14 PM
Fawkes Fawkes is offline
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The other common tuning for 10 string is called "Romantic' tuning (sometimes also called "baroque" which I think just confuses things), and consists of the regular guitar tuning and then the extra bases proceeding diatonically from the low E. There are many less-known variants. "Multi-string guitar" is a useful search term. It will find you the separate section at the classical guitar forum, among other things.

Worth noting that Torres and other Spanish makers of his time and slightly later made the occasional 11 string guitar.

I just picked up a Japanese made 10 string Yepes style. The tentative plan is to add an 11th (like Moran Wasser's guitar) and tune it like a baroque lute.
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  #11  
Old 08-29-2023, 07:25 AM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurth View Post
ok....see what I can mixup the next week or so. It's pretty resonant. A bear to tune. Did u see my post in the general forum? the photos have been removed where I purchased it....but I give some overview of the guitar. All wood, cedar top, made by a luthier in Leon. For the same price as a yamaha c40.
Hi Kurt,
I did manage to find your post, but the pics were gone. You only paid $165. for this guitar? That's amazingly cheap. The woods + labor alone exceed that I'm sure. It's like a giveaway.
Here's a clip of someone highlighting the sympathetic resonance of all notes on a 10 string as compared to a 6 string. Would have been nice to hear it played too, but it's a strict note for note comparison to make a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
The other common tuning for 10 string is called "Romantic' tuning (sometimes also called "baroque" which I think just confuses things), and consists of the regular guitar tuning and then the extra bases proceeding diatonically from the low E. There are many less-known variants. "Multi-string guitar" is a useful search term. It will find you the separate section at the classical guitar forum, among other things.

Worth noting that Torres and other Spanish makers of his time and slightly later made the occasional 11 string guitar.

I just picked up a Japanese made 10 string Yepes style. The tentative plan is to add an 11th (like Moran Wasser's guitar) and tune it like a baroque lute.
Is it a Yamaha by any chance? Pics please if you have some!
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Best regards,
Andre

Golf is pretty simple. It's just not that easy.
- Paul Azinger

"It ainít what you donít know that gets you into trouble. Itís what you know for sure that just ainít so."
Ė Mark Twain

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gitfiddlemann
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2023, 09:24 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann View Post
Hi Kurt,
I did manage to find your post, but the pics were gone. You only paid $165. for this guitar? That's amazingly cheap. The woods + labor alone exceed that I'm sure. It's like a giveaway.
Here's a clip of someone highlighting the sympathetic resonance of all notes on a 10 string as compared to a 6 string. Would have been nice to hear it played too, but it's a strict note for note comparison to make a point.


Is it a Yamaha by any chance? Pics please if you have some!
It was made by a luthier in Leon, Guanajuato. When I googled his name, a new guitar of his popped up asking 15mil pesos, which is about $800us. I can't say why the seller gave it away. He later told me he had been the original owner. It would have been too rude to ask. I can't say why I watched it for over a week and no one else bought it first. I had just bought my yam ll6,and thr5a so I was reluctant to ask my wife for even the 2750p...but after a week I told her I couldn't just let it sit there and be so lonely. It was still a $165 risk. The photos weren't good enough to see details. I thought the binding might have bad places , but arrived and looked almost looked new. Obviously well cared for. It even had a custom sock to keep her warm. I thought it might arrive unplayable. It arrived built inside a wooden crate. He even included a new set of strings. Solid cedar top, solid walnut back and sides. Sounds twice as loud as my goya, which is a nice sounding classical to my ears. Yes you can find some great nylon guitars on mercadolibre. New, all solid for less than $300us. Used for 3000p or less. Nylon guitars is what mexican music runs on. I've been recommending Caro y Topete . I friend who's a world class player has one and they're just beautifully crafted instruments...for $400us. Sorry I'm not on any photo hosting platforms...since I'm an ex-photograher I've always avoided those. But it looks just like the video.
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Goya g10, Yamaha CN525E, 10string classical, Babilon Lombard N, Ibanez GA5TCE
Alvarez a700 F mandolin, Epiphone Mandobird
Ovation 12 string 1515
Takamine F349, Takamine g340, Yamaha LL6M
'78 Fender Strat
Univox Ultra elec12string
Lute 13 strings
Gibson Les Paul Triumph Bass
Piano, Keyboards, Controllers, Marimba, Dusty Strings harp
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  #13  
Old 08-29-2023, 09:32 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann View Post
Hi Kurt,
I did manage to find your post, but the pics were gone. You only paid $165. for this guitar? That's amazingly cheap. The woods + labor alone exceed that I'm sure. It's like a giveaway.
Here's a clip of someone highlighting the sympathetic resonance of all notes on a 10 string as compared to a 6 string. Would have been nice to hear it played too, but it's a strict note for note comparison to make a point.


Is it a Yamaha by any chance? Pics please if you have some!
It was made by a luthier in Leon, Guanajuato. When I googled his name, a new guitar of his popped up asking 15mil pesos, which is about $800us. I can't say why the seller gave it away. He later told me he had been the original owner. It would have been too rude to ask. I can't say why I watched it for over a week and no one else bought it first. I had just bought my yam ll6,and thr5a so I was reluctant to ask my wife for even the 2750p...but after a week I told her I couldn't just let it sit there and be so lonely. It was still a $165 risk. The photos weren't good enough to see details. I thought the binding might have bad places , but arrived and looked almost looked new. Obviously well cared for. It even had a custom sock to keep her warm. I thought it might arrive unplayable. It arrived built inside a wooden crate. He even included a new set of strings. Solid cedar top, solid walnut back and sides. Sounds twice as loud as my goya, which is a nice sounding classical to my ears. Yes you can find some great nylon guitars on mercadolibre. New, all solid for less than $300us. Used for 3000p or less. Nylon guitars is what mexican music runs on. I've been recommending Caro y Topete . I friend who's a world class player has one and they're just beautifully crafted instruments...for $400us. Sorry I'm not on any photo hosting platforms...since I'm an ex-photograher I've always avoided those. But it looks just like the video.
__________________
Goya g10, Yamaha CN525E, 10string classical, Babilon Lombard N, Ibanez GA5TCE
Alvarez a700 F mandolin, Epiphone Mandobird
Ovation 12 string 1515
Takamine F349, Takamine g340, Yamaha LL6M
'78 Fender Strat
Univox Ultra elec12string
Lute 13 strings
Gibson Les Paul Triumph Bass
Piano, Keyboards, Controllers, Marimba, Dusty Strings harp
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  #14  
Old 09-02-2023, 01:46 PM
kurth kurth is offline
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Default a little doodle

....mic'ing with a medium ldc at the soundhole and a sdc at the 12th. The squeaks overboarded but I got them more under control later. I'm going to try recording with the little irig mic and see if it's less squeaky. And thought I might could use two kna under the strings piezo's. Maybe talcum my hands ?? I dunno? It's easy to doodle, once you get the geometry straight. I'm thinking an 8 string might be easier to control, and reap 90% of the interest. O & i'm tooned weird !
ps....getting a less squeaky recording using the irig mic thru Gb ipad.

https://soundcloud.com/kurth-bousman/10string-1wav
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Goya g10, Yamaha CN525E, 10string classical, Babilon Lombard N, Ibanez GA5TCE
Alvarez a700 F mandolin, Epiphone Mandobird
Ovation 12 string 1515
Takamine F349, Takamine g340, Yamaha LL6M
'78 Fender Strat
Univox Ultra elec12string
Lute 13 strings
Gibson Les Paul Triumph Bass
Piano, Keyboards, Controllers, Marimba, Dusty Strings harp

Last edited by kurth; 09-02-2023 at 11:36 PM.
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  #15  
Old 09-03-2023, 01:30 AM
nikpearson nikpearson is offline
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Default Some really helpful information hereÖ

The Yepes tuning certainly lay works for adding sympathetic resonances on all 12 notes of the chromatic scale. With standard 6-string instruments you can hear these resonances on E,A,B & D and sometimes very faintly on G. The Yepes tuning enhances both the range of resonances and the quantity; itís quite intoxicating.

Having recently completed a 10-string instrument modelled along the lines of the Ramirez/Yepes collaboration I can absolutely see why Yepes then went on to play 10-string instruments (almost) exclusively. The 6-string guitar sounds almost empty in comparison with the 10-string with its wash of resonances giving a reverb effect. There are significant downsides though. As players we are so used to having the lowest string on the 6th that many people find locating the correct string a challenge. I like the suggestion of using different coloured strings - itís something that my tutor mentioned when testing the completed instrument.

Compared with my usual classical the 10-string sounds bigger and more responsive, despite having slightly heavier fan bracing and a treble bar in the Ramirez style.

Iíve had a few issues with the French polish finish so havenít been able to play the guitar for the last few weeks. Once fully repolished and given time to harden Iíll be going back to working on a piece or two. Bachís prelude 998 sounded lovely on the guitar - at least the little bit I could play.

The Ďbaroqueí tuning mentioned in another post uses thicker strings to provide lower notes than the C2 of the Yepes. The recordings Iíve heard with these tunings sound rather muddy/flabby in the lower notes which I think is down to the standard scale length. The low C is about at the limit of where the string still sounds full and focused. To really make the lower notes sing an extended scale length is needed - see Georg Bolinís alto guitar.
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